Baer Amplification Megathread!

[Daniel Piper]

I say don't design/produce a new amp.

Everywhere you turn there are new amps. There are amps for Africa. (are we still allowed to say that?)

I say combine your OUTSTANDING ability to design and produce killer speaker cabs with class d power amps.

Powered Baer cabs.

 

[alaskaleftybass]

Baer Micro Class D amp with your logo and particular set of tone enhancement...

 

[5StringPocket]

When I plug into the Valkyrie it feels like I'm plugged into a huge, pristine analog console, the EQ feels like EQ on said console, and switching on the tube drive makes it feel like I'm listening to it from the playback head of a tape machine. It's the only thing I've ever played or owned that brings that out, and that magic is there in the DI output so it's not dependent on the iron in the power section. If you could smush a substantial amount of that vibe and the EQ flexibility into a class D head it'd be worth buying. The tube drive section was the reason I was interested in the Valkyrie and would be a definite market differentiator in a class D head, even though I imagine it'd be quite hard to shrink down.

The Valkyrie pre-amp is the heart of the sound and why I would buy one if it became available. It does have to be paired with an amp with the heft and weight to the notes to properly support it, but there have been so many advances lately in high quality 800-1000 watt Class D amps that this shouldn't drive the decision whether or not to enter the market.

 

[scotch]

Lots of great suggestions for new amp design ideas. Everyone is certainly displaying their amp forum knowledge and awareness of current trends in MI amplification technology.

All I want is an amp with a cupholder. ;-)

(all in good fun, fellas. Lets face it: we're ALL nerds!!!!)

 

[Lowendtech]

I'd prolly be perfectly happy with a Valk Pre.
Then I'd just sort my power as required.
A Valk Pre into a Quilter BB800 would prolly be a nice ticket.

 

[Kirk Bryant]

I thought about the Val/Quilter but I'd have to buy another amp. Probably run it through my MM1000. But I really don't want another piece to hual and setup.

 

[scotch]

Different angle (although I stand behind the cupholder *wink*):
Bass amp. Simple, but flexible tone controls. Realistic power for players that realize that once you have a gig that 300 watts can't handle, you're already playing with a p.a. and no longer need even 300 watts.

No bells.
No whistles,
No USB/bluetooth/homing pigeons.

Here's where it gets unique:
Built to last. No, really.
An amp with shock mounted pc boards.
An amp where the control knobs, jack, etc won't break off if the amp falls.
An amp with redundant heat sinks or fans.
An amp with smart analog protection from speaker load problems and ac power fluctuations.
An amp with a chassis that bounces instead of breaks.
An amp where critical circuitry is sealed from rain, spilled drinks, and festival dust.
An amp where I forget I have an amp and just keep playing.

 

[emjazz]

An amp where I forget I have an amp and just keep playing.

This. Happens far too infrequently.

 

[scotch]

This. Happens far too infrequently.

Yup. I'm guilty of overthinking my gear. But at least I'm aware when it happens.

 

[R Baer]

Hey Guys, sorry for disappearing a bit. Been laid up with NAMMthrax/flu, but feeling much better today! Really appreciate all the comments and suggestions. I was going to try and go back and reply to all but that would take quite a while. I'll admit, I'm feeling a bit inspired here after seeing so many responses. Please keep the ideas coming. It's really great to see everyone engaged in what we are doing!

 

[R Baer]

This fun listening to this. And Snaxter, interesting comments, you obviously are looking at this from a more elevated business perspective than I. I'm just a bass player that would like to use both stellar sounding gear and have some cutting edge tech ... I'm also curious as to if you've done blind auditions of your pre into various Dclass amps, to avoid your current bias and still find them totally lacking. Id love to hear your testing procedure.

My guess is that the majority of players may not mind the small change in tone/feel for the trade off of weight. And might very well appreciate as well as purchase an amp with your vision and flavor.
To me the newer 800-1000 watt amps kick/punch/heft whatever you call it more like a big tube amp than previous generations. I'll never haul a large tube amp again. And I know I'm not alone.
I'm wondering if relaxing slightly, your high standards might not be a good thing and at the same time not denigrate or dilute the quality of your products.

There are plenty of post on this subject. In short, the Valkyrie started off as a class D. Keep in mind, these were early generation modules, but we tried ICE and Hypex in the amp. After much frustration trying to make me happy with these, my engineer finally hooked up an old 70's Carver power amp that weighed about 80lbs to the Valkyrie's preamp. It was like the Heavens parted and the Angels themselves had blessed my preamp with the fattest, most GLORIOUS bass tone I had ever heard! His response, after spending months working with the class D modules was "If this is the sound you are after, you aren't ever gonna get it from one of these things". So we moved forward with our own class A/B design. For as great as that amp sounds, buy the time it hit the market, the bass community had fully embraced high powered amps that fit in your gig bag and never went back.

The Valkyrie pre-amp is the heart of the sound and why I would buy one if it became available. It does have to be paired with an amp with the heft and weight to the notes to properly support it, but there have been so many advances lately in high quality 800-1000 watt Class D amps that this shouldn't drive the decision whether or not to enter the market.

So, there does seem to be quite a few post regarding my opinion on class D amps. So, while I have no desire to debate this topic, I know there are those who don't know, or understand my less than enthusiastic support of class D, so I'll indulge a little explanation. Way back, I was in one band for about 6 years that had the good fortune to be able to spend hundreds, if not thousands of hours recording at A&M records because our guitar player was a manager there. We unlisted use of their best studios and worked with some of their best engineers. During this time, I really took interest in the recording process and would always attend the mix and mastering sessions as well. Because of the experience, I do think I developed somewhat of a well trained ear for bass. By this, I mean that I learned what really makes up the instrument's tone. Rather than just hear a bass as bass, I hear it as a combination of a whole lot of elements. The balance of lows/mids/highs. What frequencies are pushed forward, what are pulled backed. Are the lows open and clear, or slightly compressed? And going beyond just the tone of my various amps, I became really obsessed with the feel of different amps as well. Is the attack immediate, or do I feel a little tube compression, or power supply sag under my fingers as I play? How well is the amp controlling to movement of the driver in my cabs? I could go on and on. I don't say this to boast. I only mention it because to a lot of players, my gripe about class D is maybe a little over the top. And there's probably a lot of truth to that.

But let's face it, for the most part, it's the subtle things that make a difference. For example, how much difference is there really between a high quality $1500 bass and a $3000 bass? Between a $5,000 Sadowsky and a $8,000 Fodera? In reality it's the little subtle things, or combination of many subtle things, that really only matter to the one willing to lay down the money. Again, I have no real desire to debate class D with anymore. It's been done to death and my opinion of it is still pretty much the same. Yes, it is lightyears better than those first class D amps to hit the market, but there are still subtleties about the format (or more specifically, the OEM modules found in almost every bass amp out there) that still bother my ear and sense of feel and I know I'm not the only one. I can't tell you how many players at NAMM plugged into one of our rigs and looked at me funny before saying, "That's not a class D, is it?" But, with all that said, I honestly do see the appeal of the technology and think it's pretty neat stuff. There's lots to be liked about gobs of cheap, lightweight power that doesn't involve months R&D work coming up with a power section. So, it's something we are working with and some of the new modules are good enough that I think the subtleties that bother me are fairly insignificant within a live mix. In the end, the thought that gear I create inspires people to play their best far outweighs my little OCD obsessiveness over this technology or that. Unless of course, as someone mentioned, amps will eventually all end up as nothing more than ICE powered iPad docks that players use to run plug ins. At that point I think I'll look into raising Alpacas, or building Halloween corn mazes.

 

[Snaxster]

There are plenty of post on this subject. In short, the Valkyrie started off as a class D. Keep in mind, these were early generation modules, but we tried ICE and Hypex in the amp. After much frustration trying to make me happy with these, my engineer finally hooked up an old 70's Carver power amp that weighed about 80lbs to the Valkyrie's preamp. It was like the Heavens parted and the Angels themselves had blessed my preamp with the fattest, most GLORIOUS bass tone I had ever heard! His response, after spending months working with the class D modules was "If this is the sound you are after, you aren't ever gonna get it from one of these things". So we moved forward with our own class A/B design. For as great as that amp sounds, buy the time it hit the market, the bass community had fully embraced high powered amps that fit in your gig bag and never went back.



So, there does seem to be quite a few post regarding my opinion on class D amps. So, while I have no desire to debate this topic, but I know there are those who don't know, or understand my less than enthusiastic support of class D, so I'll indulge a little explanation. Way back, I was in one band for about 6 years that had the good fortune to be able to spend hundreds, if not thousands of hours recording at A&M records because our guitar player was a manager there. We unlisted use of their best studios and worked with some of their best engineers. During this time, I really took interest in the recording process and would always attend the mix and mastering sessions as well. Because of the experience, I do think I developed somewhat of a well trained ear for bass. By this, I mean that I learned what really makes up the instrument's tone. Rather than just hear a bass as bass, I hear it as a combination of a whole lot of elements. The balance of lows/mids/highs. What frequencies are pushed forward, what are pulled backed. Are the lows open and clear, or slightly compressed. Is the fundamental without strange wavering overtones. And going beyond just the tone of my various amps, I became really tuned in to the feel of them as well. Is the attack immediate, or do I feel a little tube compression, or power supply sag under my fingers as I play. How well is the amp controlling to movement of the driver in my cabs? I could go on and on. I don't say this to boast. I only mention it because to a lot of players, my gripe about class D is maybe a little over the top. And there's probably a lot of truth to that.

But let's face it, for the most part, it's the subtle things that make a difference. For example, how much difference is there between a high quality $1500 bass and a $3000 bass? Between a $5,000 Sadowsky and a $8,000 Fodera? In reality it's the little subtle things, or combination of many subtle things, that really only matter to the one willing to lay down the money. Again, I have no real desire to debate class D with anymore. It's been done to death and my opinion of it is still pretty much the same. Yes, it is lightyears better than those first class D amps to hit the market, but there are still subtleties about the format (or more specifically, the OEM modules found in almost every bass amp out there) that still bother my ear and sense of feel and I know I'm not the only one. I can't tell you how many players at NAMM plugged into one of our rigs and looked at me funny before saying, "That's not a class D, is it?" But, with all that said, I honestly do see the appeal of the technology and think it's pretty neat stuff. There's lots to be liked about gobs of cheap, lightweight power that doesn't involve months R&D work coming up with a power section. So, it's something we are working with and some of the new modules are good enough that I think the subtleties that bother me are fairly insignificant within a live mix. In the end, the thought that gear I create inspires people to play their best far outweighs my little OCD obsessiveness over this technology or that. Unless of course, as someone mentioned, amps will eventually all end up as nothing more than ICE powered iPad docks that players use to run plug ins. At that point I think I'll look into raising Alpacas, or building Halloween corn mazes.

 

[emjazz]

There are plenty of post on this subject. In short, the Valkyrie started off as a class D. Keep in mind, these were early generation modules, but we tried ICE and Hypex in the amp. After much frustration trying to make me happy with these, my engineer finally hooked up an old 70's Carver power amp that weighed about 80lbs to the Valkyrie's preamp. It was like the Heavens parted and the Angels themselves had blessed my preamp with the fattest, most GLORIOUS bass tone I had ever heard! His response, after spending months working with the class D modules was "If this is the sound you are after, you aren't ever gonna get it from one of these things". So we moved forward with our own class A/B design. For as great as that amp sounds, buy the time it hit the market, the bass community had fully embraced high powered amps that fit in your gig bag and never went back.



So, there does seem to be quite a few post regarding my opinion on class D amps. So, while I have no desire to debate this topic, I know there are those who don't know, or understand my less than enthusiastic support of class D, so I'll indulge a little explanation. Way back, I was in one band for about 6 years that had the good fortune to be able to spend hundreds, if not thousands of hours recording at A&M records because our guitar player was a manager there. We unlisted use of their best studios and worked with some of their best engineers. During this time, I really took interest in the recording process and would always attend the mix and mastering sessions as well. Because of the experience, I do think I developed somewhat of a well trained ear for bass. By this, I mean that I learned what really makes up the instrument's tone. Rather than just hear a bass as bass, I hear it as a combination of a whole lot of elements. The balance of lows/mids/highs. What frequencies are pushed forward, what are pulled backed. Are the lows open and clear, or slightly compressed? And going beyond just the tone of my various amps, I became really obsessed with the feel of different amps as well. Is the attack immediate, or do I feel a little tube compression, or power supply sag under my fingers as I play? How well is the amp controlling to movement of the driver in my cabs? I could go on and on. I don't say this to boast. I only mention it because to a lot of players, my gripe about class D is maybe a little over the top. And there's probably a lot of truth to that.

But let's face it, for the most part, it's the subtle things that make a difference. For example, how much difference is there really between a high quality $1500 bass and a $3000 bass? Between a $5,000 Sadowsky and a $8,000 Fodera? In reality it's the little subtle things, or combination of many subtle things, that really only matter to the one willing to lay down the money. Again, I have no real desire to debate class D with anymore. It's been done to death and my opinion of it is still pretty much the same. Yes, it is lightyears better than those first class D amps to hit the market, but there are still subtleties about the format (or more specifically, the OEM modules found in almost every bass amp out there) that still bother my ear and sense of feel and I know I'm not the only one. I can't tell you how many players at NAMM plugged into one of our rigs and looked at me funny before saying, "That's not a class D, is it?" But, with all that said, I honestly do see the appeal of the technology and think it's pretty neat stuff. There's lots to be liked about gobs of cheap, lightweight power that doesn't involve months R&D work coming up with a power section. So, it's something we are working with and some of the new modules are good enough that I think the subtleties that bother me are fairly insignificant within a live mix. In the end, the thought that gear I create inspires people to play their best far outweighs my little OCD obsessiveness over this technology or that. Unless of course, as someone mentioned, amps will eventually all end up as nothing more than ICE powered iPad docks that players use to run plug ins. At that point I think I'll look into raising Alpacas, or building Halloween corn mazes.

Where is the "I love this post!" button?

 

[Kirk Bryant]

You might have a real future in the Corn Maze Construction field!
As I was reading the first half of your comments I was thinking, why not build your own Power module. Others have, Peavey did. Not sure who else, Quilter was already building them long before the BB. Of the newer amps I've played (My Previous #1 Shuttlemax 12.0) I like my MM1000 and the Subway 800+ better than the original Subway or the Quilter BB800. I'm sure the Bamp, Glock, Eich, etc. are very good as well.
Im sure many are glad youre finding middle ground on adopting the Dclass platform. As far as everything being on your pad, I'm sure there will be folks wanting it sooner rather than later. A lot of us still want a top notch amp and cab that gets the job done as gracefully as possible. By that I mean as high quality amp and speaker and as portable as possible. I don't know about you, but everybody I know has multiple rigs at home they hope to never move again. I'd like modular components to cover every scenario from Flute, Upright Duos to the thirteen piece horn band and loud rock gigs that will fit in a closet. (Completely doable) I'm close already.
Oh, did I hear you say you're closer to seriously considering building a D class?

 

[R Baer]

You might have a real future in the Corn Maze Construction field!
As I was reading the first half of your comments I was thinking, why not build your own Power module. Others have, Peavey did. Not sure who else, Quilter was already building them long before the BB. Of the newer amps I've played (My Previous #1 Shuttlemax 12.0) I like my MM1000 and the Subway 800+ better than the original Subway or the Quilter BB800. I'm sure the Bamp, Glock, Eich, etc. are very good as well.
Im sure many are glad youre finding middle ground on adopting the Dclass platform. As far as everything being on your pad, I'm sure there will be folks wanting it sooner rather than later. A lot of us still want a top notch amp and cab that gets the job done as gracefully as possible. By that I mean as high quality amp and speaker and as portable as possible. I don't know about you, but everybody I know has multiple rigs at home they hope to never move again. I'd like modular components to cover every scenario from Flute, Upright Duos to the thirteen piece horn band and loud rock gigs that will fit in a closet. (Completely doable) I'm close already.
Oh, did I hear you say you're closer to seriously considering building a D class?

There's a few major hurdles with developing your own class D module. Massive R&D cost and UL and FCC certification chief among them. A company like Ice Power probably spends hundreds of thousands of dollars (if not more) to bring a new design to market. A small amp maker like me could never recoup R&D cost on something like that. And honestly, they already have some the most talented engineers possible working there, who's sole focus is nothing but making every generation of class D modules better and better. Giant companies like Ampeg and Peavey have the cash flow and engineering staff to support proprietary designs and guys like Pat Quilter are just mad geniuses. For us, going class D means sticking with an OEM module from one of the big players. I could never hope to develop my own product at that level that's already available to me through an OEM product.

That's why I found working on our own class A/B with the Valkyrie so rewarding. That older technology let us small companies design our own unique power sections, which helped our amps stand out against the other products on the market. These days, with so many amps all sharing the same output sections, the distinctions become all about the preamp design and it's not surprising that people find many similarities amongst what is available. I'm totally into doing a class D and it is something we have been working on. We'll get there eventually.

 

[jasonbraatz]

How heavy / big would a box with the VTI and a 1000w Class D module be? I think a lot of players just want something like that. I'll want to use the VTI live, but I'll also need a head. Lots of players are using pedalboard preamps and just want a good DI and clean power.

At this point with the investment made in the VTI potentially double-dipping on that R&D by attaching a power module could work out, and it wouldn't be as much work as designing something else from scratch.

(Also yearly reminder that the Valkyrie is not heavy. A DB750 is heavy. An SVT is heavy.)

 

[emjazz]

I personally believe that it would be a waste of time and money to simply put out a DI with power. That's not going to sell well enough to justify developing.

How heavy is the Valk? Is it possible to use a more traditional power supply and shrink it down? Something like the size of the Eden WT550?

 

[jasonbraatz]

The VTI seems a little bit more like a Monique or a Noble than a REDDI, and the Monique at least has a powered version that seems popular...

 

[scotch]

"Popular" or "niche"?
While those Monique setups are certainly well liked on talkbass, I'd be surprised if there have been more than a dozen sold out in the wild.

 

[R Baer]

How heavy / big would a box with the VTI and a 1000w Class D module be? I think a lot of players just want something like that. I'll want to use the VTI live, but I'll also need a head. Lots of players are using pedalboard preamps and just want a good DI and clean power.

At this point with the investment made in the VTI potentially double-dipping on that R&D by attaching a power module could work out, and it wouldn't be as much work as designing something else from scratch.

(Also yearly reminder that the Valkyrie is not heavy. A DB750 is heavy. An SVT is heavy.)

I actually did an industrial design for a stand alone power amp for the VTI, with the thought that if people start requesting this, I would already have a head start on it.

The VTI seems a little bit more like a Monique or a Noble than a REDDI, and the Monique at least has a powered version that seems popular...

I'm actually not sure I would put the VTI in the same category as the Monique or Noble. I think I would lean it more towards the REDDI, and here's why. The Monique and Noble are without question preamps to me, as they have traditional tone control sections. While the VTI does have some tone shaping capabilities, they are very subtle. Too subtle, in my opinion, to work with just a power amp for gigs. I tend to treat EQ really different form most manufacturers. To me, your sound should be coming from your fingers and from your instrument. Period. If you can't get it here, don't expect the amp to do it for you! To me, your amplifier is there to amplify your signal, while the EQ is there to deal with the room and allow you to be able to still get YOUR tone from any room you are in. Let's face it, the second you put your cab into a room, the room now becomes part of your signal chain and your EQ needs to be able to deal with that. Choices we made on the Valkyrie with regard to freq. centers, Q and filter type were done with this philosophy in mind and not simply from a point of view of being able to make your bass sound this way or that.

Keeping all that in mind, the EQ on the VTI simply doesn't have enough swing to be able to deal with room acoustics properly. They were designed to let you make subtle changes in the character of your instrument, rather than give you the ability to deal with room acoustics. Most of this was done with the assumption that very few engineers want you to send a heavily EQ'ed signal to the board. For example, the Bandwidth switch rolls off 9dB of your lows and highs, which sounds rather drastic, but in reality, it's really quite subtle. Why so subtle? Because it doesn't change the sound of your instrument, while allowing it to take up less sonic real estate in the mix. So while it's hard to hear on your instrument, you just pulled energy out of the mix around the kick drum and out of the subs, while simultaneously taking some of your top end information out of the cymbal range. Your bass will just sit a little better in the mix.

Likewise, the Character knob adds only about 4dB of bass boost and the filter is done in way that is again subtle. Turn it up and the low end sounds and feels a bitter bigger and fatter, but in a different way that you would get by turning up the bass knob on your bass, or a preamp. Why not just call it BASS BOOST? Again, studio politics. While your'e setting up, you turn up the Character a bit and when the engineer goes "Oh, that sounds cool. What did you do?" you just reply, "This knob changes the low end Character somehow" and leave it at that. Now, if you said, "I turned up the bass", then you probably get the old, "That's cool, but let me have it flat, so I can deal with the EQ later". Honestly, the tone controls on this were inspired a bit by the "Producer Switch" on Lee Sklar's old studio bass (which of course, wasn't even wired up). So, above all the VTI is really more of a standard direct box than a bass preamp with a DI out.