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Bag End Setup question
- Thread starter Rhythmdoctor
- Start date
That one is self-powered and has the processing built into it.
The thing I found most problematic when I used Bag End cabs was the rear port. Often I was forced to set up right against a wall on small stages. Not only did it completely change the tone, it also physically loaded the cabs, making the drivers more vulnerable to being blown. I had to watch things like a hawk.
The second problematic thing was the rat fur covering. Rat fur is a hard no for me these days.
They can sound very good. They have a very authoritative and musical midrange punch. But they can also be fussy in some rooms. These days it’s front ported or nothing for me. YMMV.
The second problematic thing was the rat fur covering. Rat fur is a hard no for me these days.
They can sound very good. They have a very authoritative and musical midrange punch. But they can also be fussy in some rooms. These days it’s front ported or nothing for me. YMMV.
I think the powered 2nd cab would solve a lot of problems you can run into using mis-matched cabs getting them to blend all you do is run the line out from your combo amp, or new integrated amp, to the input of the powered cab.
If both cab are powered, you will need a preamp with two line sends, one for each powered cab.
Best wishes.
The cab he referenced was a sealed cabinet and designed to use their Infra processor.
Road cases solve this problem. I've kept mine cased since the day I bought them and they still look (and smell!) new.
I've not had issues with rear ported cabs. My Bag End Q10BX-D and my Mesa Road Ready 6x10 are both rear ported and while I can alter the tone by cramming it into a corner (like any other speaker), they don't seem to have a problem with it.
I posted this in the other thread as well:
@Rhythmdoctor
Yes, you need a stereo power amp and also an INFRA integrator to use the components you have listed as intended.
Background:
From the S18E-D datasheet:
The S18E-R datasheet provides the following.
There is really little if any point in using an 18" sub the starts to cutoff at 60hz, especially when the sensitivity/max SPL is so low.
The way to get usable response to a lower frequency is to use multiple cabs. Each doubling of cabs gives approximately +6dB in max SPL when they are tight packed. For example, two doublings equals four cabs and allows you to add +12dB. Here are the new +12dB figures.
For the record, in the mid 90s I built a PA system with four S18E Compacts that had to be special ordered. The Compacts used the same drivers, but were half as deep as the regular single 18s. If I remember correctly this lowered the sensitivity rating by 3dB but had no impact on power handling. Each Compact had a dedicated 400W amp.
I had one of the original ELF 1 integrators that allowed you to customize the settings. If I remember correctly I experimented and set the LF cutoff at 40hz. Running the cutoff lower degraded the sound and further reduced headroom with no audible benefit that I could hear.
Even four of the Compacts were not massively loud IMHO. However this system was very compact and well liked for it's excellent mobility, and it stayed in service for over 15 years.
Frequency Response specs:
Sensitivity is listed as 100dB 2.83V/1m. FYI 2.83V at 4 ohms is 2W. So consider the Sensitivity 97dB/1W.
The Sensitivity is 1dB higher than the S18. This cab will play lower than the S18 if you don't use the INFRA integrator.
@Rhythmdoctor
Yes, you need a stereo power amp and also an INFRA integrator to use the components you have listed as intended.
Background:
From the S18E-D datasheet:
It is a sealed box type enclosure optimized for use with the Bag End® Infra™ processors for extended low frequency response.
Frequency Response specs:
60 Hz to 2 KHz ±3 dB
8 Hz to 95 Hz ±3 dB with external Infra™ Integrator
Sensitivity is listed as 96dB 2.83V/1m at 80hz. 2.83V at 8 ohms is 1W...so this is the same as 96dB 1W/1m. AFAIK, the sensitivity will drop by 12dB per octave below approximately 80hz. The Infra Integrator provides 12dB per octave of corrective EQ, which is how they get essentially flat response to 8hz. However, for each 3dB of correction, you need to double the power; so you quickly hit the speakers power handling limit. 8 Hz to 95 Hz ±3 dB with external Infra™ Integrator
The S18E-R datasheet provides the following.
Maximum Calculated Continuous Acoustic Output:
Half Space @ 1 Meter
10 Hz - 89 dBSPL
20 Hz - 101 dBSPL
40 Hz - 113 dBSPL
80 Hz - 124 dBSPL
Even 124dB at 80hz is really not very loud. So the SPL a single cab can produce at 40hz or lower, is probably too low to be considered usable. Half Space @ 1 Meter
10 Hz - 89 dBSPL
20 Hz - 101 dBSPL
40 Hz - 113 dBSPL
80 Hz - 124 dBSPL
There is really little if any point in using an 18" sub the starts to cutoff at 60hz, especially when the sensitivity/max SPL is so low.
The way to get usable response to a lower frequency is to use multiple cabs. Each doubling of cabs gives approximately +6dB in max SPL when they are tight packed. For example, two doublings equals four cabs and allows you to add +12dB. Here are the new +12dB figures.
Maximum Calculated Continuous Acoustic Output (four cabs):
10 Hz - 101 dBSPL
20 Hz - 113 dBSPL
40 Hz - 125 dBSPL
80 Hz - 136 dBSPL
10 Hz - 101 dBSPL
20 Hz - 113 dBSPL
40 Hz - 125 dBSPL
80 Hz - 136 dBSPL
For the record, in the mid 90s I built a PA system with four S18E Compacts that had to be special ordered. The Compacts used the same drivers, but were half as deep as the regular single 18s. If I remember correctly this lowered the sensitivity rating by 3dB but had no impact on power handling. Each Compact had a dedicated 400W amp.
I had one of the original ELF 1 integrators that allowed you to customize the settings. If I remember correctly I experimented and set the LF cutoff at 40hz. Running the cutoff lower degraded the sound and further reduced headroom with no audible benefit that I could hear.
Even four of the Compacts were not massively loud IMHO. However this system was very compact and well liked for it's excellent mobility, and it stayed in service for over 15 years.
AFAIK the D10BX-N is not designed to use the Infra Integrator. Frequency Response specs:
42 Hz to 16 kHz ±6 dB
Impedance is 4 ohms.
Sensitivity is listed as 100dB 2.83V/1m. FYI 2.83V at 4 ohms is 2W. So consider the Sensitivity 97dB/1W.
The Sensitivity is 1dB higher than the S18. This cab will play lower than the S18 if you don't use the INFRA integrator.
Long time Bag End customer. I have both powered and passive cabs. They no longer make the rat fur covering.. the NEBULA finish is similar to that of a truck bed finish. When I was talking with Bag End about nylon covers they told me not to waste the money since the new NEBULA finish is somewhat indestructible.
The powered cabs are great..I do have an Alembic F1X and it pairs beautifully with the powered cab. I also use their passive cabs and have single 10’s - 12’s and 15’s. All great sounding quality cabs.
I haven’t seen any used powered Bag End cabs on the used market..
The powered cabs are great..I do have an Alembic F1X and it pairs beautifully with the powered cab. I also use their passive cabs and have single 10’s - 12’s and 15’s. All great sounding quality cabs.
I haven’t seen any used powered Bag End cabs on the used market..
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IMHO you should find a way to audition the INFRA cab before buying one. Unless your volume requirements are very low, a single S18 cab is unlikely to give you enough output to really be usable.
I would suggest auditioning the D210BX-N before purchase as well. But this is a fairly conventional and high quality design. Rather than spending a lot on the INFRA technology, you are probably better off buying a pair of the D210BX-N. However to run two, you need either an amp rated for a 2 ohm minimum load, or dual mono amps rated for 4 ohms each.
I would suggest auditioning the D210BX-N before purchase as well. But this is a fairly conventional and high quality design. Rather than spending a lot on the INFRA technology, you are probably better off buying a pair of the D210BX-N. However to run two, you need either an amp rated for a 2 ohm minimum load, or dual mono amps rated for 4 ohms each.
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From yesterday.. S15 N cabs with Neo 15” Bag End drivers.
NEBULA finish..
NEBULA finish..
Check this out:
[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]
I'm not sure what to say, big price difference. Better call Mica?
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Seems too much trouble and $ for a setup beginner or not. The Alembic preamps are not cheap used or new. My buddy has a few and he's got money and the repair costs him what a used D800 sells in the classifieds. And Bag Ends are not that loud, yes hi-fi but you need all those special doodads.
I would say that the ship has moved on and there are other tube preamps and drivers and power amps that would deliver better for less money and pain free setup
I would say that the ship has moved on and there are other tube preamps and drivers and power amps that would deliver better for less money and pain free setup
The price list you linked to is not from 2019, it reflects a recent price increase that was announced by Alembic about a month ago.
"All prices are US Retail and are subject to change without notice. Last update August 6, 2021. Specifications subject to improvement spontaneously!"
Rhythmdoctor,
You have your eye on some very nice gear. Since you mentioned you are a beginner at bass and admittedly do not have a lot of knowledge about bass amps I am curious why you picked out the components that you asking about? It seems like an expensive, fairly complicated system that should not be purchased unless you have auditioned the various components, and know they will work for you.
You should still be able to find a used Alembic pre for $500-$750. An F2-B is generally a bit more but I do see used ones at times that are $750 or less. I also see them offered for over a grand and they sit there unsold. Some people feel that because it is an Alembic product the sky is the limit when pricing to sell used so you need to get a feel for the actual selling prices. One thing I would strongly suggest is that if you have never used an amp with a Fender tone-stack you should definitely check one out. Some people love them and love the simplicity but others find the EQ possibilities limiting. I have an F2-B and it sounds great but I have never totally been able to wrap my head around the way the tone controls interact. Should be easy for you to locate a Fender bass amp in a shop and check it out. The Alembic preamps are excellent but if you don't like the Fender tone stack they are a bad choice.
Good luck putting together your rig!
'
I don’t understand your comment about Bag End speakers not being loud. I use them all the time and never have a volume problem in a 7 pc band.
I have owned 2 Alembic F-1X and played them through bag end cabs for years. I got the best results from running the Alembic pre directly into a clean power amp. You can get a rack mount stereo power amp that blows doors for not too much money. Nothing that says Alembic will come cheep. I used their basses for years, through a F-1X, then into bag end cabs, with great results. I also had great results from running the Alembic into a Hartke amp.
If ya get the alembic it will need to be in a rack. So it makes sense to run it into a rack mounted power amp. Use em with an amp that does not color the tone much. The Alembic pre does not play well with many amps. When they do play well with others, they sound incredible.
I have since moved on to Mesa amps. I am able to get the same quality sound through the new Mesa amps. And at a fraction of the hassle to move. I sold the F-1X to pay for the Mesa if that tells you anything. Mesa is using a similar set up as the venerable Fender tone stack; and that is what Ron Wickersham put in his F-1X.
As an other person said Bag End cabs are rear ported. So the low bass sound comes out of the hole in the back of the cab. That can be an issue on outdoor gigs. I never had a problem with that though.
Do read up before making your choice. Your answers can all be found on talk bass. I do recommend checking out the new Mesa Amps before you buy.
If ya get the alembic it will need to be in a rack. So it makes sense to run it into a rack mounted power amp. Use em with an amp that does not color the tone much. The Alembic pre does not play well with many amps. When they do play well with others, they sound incredible.
I have since moved on to Mesa amps. I am able to get the same quality sound through the new Mesa amps. And at a fraction of the hassle to move. I sold the F-1X to pay for the Mesa if that tells you anything. Mesa is using a similar set up as the venerable Fender tone stack; and that is what Ron Wickersham put in his F-1X.
As an other person said Bag End cabs are rear ported. So the low bass sound comes out of the hole in the back of the cab. That can be an issue on outdoor gigs. I never had a problem with that though.
Do read up before making your choice. Your answers can all be found on talk bass. I do recommend checking out the new Mesa Amps before you buy.
I had two Bag End S-15Ds wayyyy back in the day, and I used the F1-X for a while.
Since you're fairly new to the gear circus, I proffer a very unsolicited opinion.
The Bag End stuff is nice. Loud. Heavy to carry. Sounds just ok. Newer gear overtook it long ago, e.g. Bergantino, Mesa Subway, Aguilar, etc.
I heartily do not recommend the F1-X. It's sounds super sweet alone, but it gets lost in the mix big time, IME. There are way better preamps on the market these days.
Since you're fairly new to the gear circus, I proffer a very unsolicited opinion.
The Bag End stuff is nice. Loud. Heavy to carry. Sounds just ok. Newer gear overtook it long ago, e.g. Bergantino, Mesa Subway, Aguilar, etc.
I heartily do not recommend the F1-X. It's sounds super sweet alone, but it gets lost in the mix big time, IME. There are way better preamps on the market these days.
Same experience with my F-1X. It is a great sounding pre. But if I have to make a tone tweak at a gig it usually isn't just a quick turn of one knob.
I am all for quality, high-end gear. But I have to agree with those saying your choices might not be the wisest for someone with as little bass experience/technical knowledge as you claim to have. I humbly suggest you reevaluate why you've chosen these components and what you want from them. There might be some better/lighter/less expensive choices for what you need right now. Keep an eye out for a used Alembic down the road and make the leap then if you still desire one.
If I were spending that kind of cash I would look hard at some of the more modern cabs (Fearless, LDS, Barefaced, Audiokinesis, etc) and pair it with a smaller head like Mesa, DNA, etc. If you REALLY want a pre/power amp setup you could pair a nice studio pre with a big Class D for huge power but I don't think it would be necessary with any of those cabs.
