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Bag End Setup question
- Thread starter Rhythmdoctor
- Start date
When you get a minute, let us know what you like and don’t like about your combo if you can determine any of that. Knowing which instrument(s) you will use, how you will play, and what kind(s) of music you want to play will also help us provide more focused advice
Yeah they are, crazy expensive. The current price list has both at $3,300.
That's why used ones are rare and expensive as well.
IIRC about 25 years ago when you saw them in stores they sold for less than $1,000.
I've actually played through one (in the store and a friend had one) and while they are great they were not my kinda mojo. I wound up going with an Ampeg SVP-Pro which I love dearly.
Analogeezer
I'll add my voice to the chorus of folks who think the rig you are (were?) contemplating is needlessly complicated and obscure, especially for someone who is building their first real rig and isn't at all knowledgeable. Most obviously, you absolutely, positively don't need a sub that requires an external 'infrasonic' processor. And the opinions expressed about the limitations of the Fender tone circuits employed in the Alembic preamps are well-founded, IMO -- time marches on and much more effective EQ circuits are common.
If you're soliciting opinions about what to consider, I'm sure plenty will be offered. I don't what your needs are, but based on what you've indicated you have to spend, I'd point you toward Mesa... it seems very few people express disappointment in their Mesa gear here on TB. I'll also observe that this isn't likely to be the only bass rig you ever buy -- you don't have to make a lifetime decision at this point in your playing career.
If you're soliciting opinions about what to consider, I'm sure plenty will be offered. I don't what your needs are, but based on what you've indicated you have to spend, I'd point you toward Mesa... it seems very few people express disappointment in their Mesa gear here on TB. I'll also observe that this isn't likely to be the only bass rig you ever buy -- you don't have to make a lifetime decision at this point in your playing career.
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To add to what Redbragus has said the tone stack of the F2B is like a Fender Dual Showman. There are much more up to date amps available that would be much simpler to deal with. I used a couple of Bag Eng 15's for years but these days I am much happier with my Bergantino and Euphonic Audio Wizzy cabinets. A Bergantino HP, Mesa d800+ or Genzler Magellan would be a very potent amp and much easier to set up.
As a number of others have mentioned, I think you are over-complicating this in your search for the Lesh Grail.
@edwinhurwitz has gone down that road and perhaps can chime in here, however.
P.S. I may have missed it - what basses are you planning to use?
@edwinhurwitz has gone down that road and perhaps can chime in here, however.
P.S. I may have missed it - what basses are you planning to use?
A reminder here that Mr. Lesh used Eden amps for quite a while. That gear is still available in various formats.
Nothing against Bag End at all, but there’s a world of cabs out there from the same era of technology (well, maybe not 18” subs) for reasonable prices all day long.
I hope all this feedback has helped you widen your bass amp lens!
Nothing against Bag End at all, but there’s a world of cabs out there from the same era of technology (well, maybe not 18” subs) for reasonable prices all day long.
I hope all this feedback has helped you widen your bass amp lens!
While I doubt a single INFRA sub will be worth your while, I am not totally opposed to all of your choices. The Alembic preamp will sound fabulous, but it's true the tone controls are not very versatile or powerful by today's standards. But many highly-regarded amps actually still use a Fender Tone stack, or a slightly modified Fender Tone stack.
In particular, I think the Orange AD200B sounds and responds very much like a blackface Fender. The tone stack is pretty much textbook Fender, although the component values are somewhat different. If you can find an AD200B to try out, I suggest you max at the Volume control and then set your level with the Gain. This will make the amp sound and behave a lot like a vintage Fender.
AFAIK, the Bag End D210BX-N is nothing unusual, other than it appears to be somewhat obscure. I don't see why anyone would advise against this cab, other than it's a bit heavy...and I am guessing it's fairly expensive as well. Overall I would expect it to be very HiFi sounding. If that's what you are after, you might love it. If you want a more traditional sound try one of the S15 variants.
I do think it's a good idea to audition gear before you buy. It does not really matter if millions of people think a rig is great, you may hate it. The first rig I ever bought was a brand new MTI era Ampeg SVT and 810, and it was a bad choice for me. I had never heard or seen an SVT, but I wanted the best. I read a lot of reviews and articles and everyone's description/opinion made is seem like it produced the perfect sound, so I had one special ordered.
When I came in, the store gave me a call so I could come play it. I actually wondered if it was damaged or counterfeit. No disrespect to all the people who love this rig, but to my ears they sound terrible. For record I have played through several SVT/810 rigs since then and the all sound pretty much the same, so the MTI was fine. There was nothing wrong with it; it's just not my sound.
In particular, I think the Orange AD200B sounds and responds very much like a blackface Fender. The tone stack is pretty much textbook Fender, although the component values are somewhat different. If you can find an AD200B to try out, I suggest you max at the Volume control and then set your level with the Gain. This will make the amp sound and behave a lot like a vintage Fender.
AFAIK, the Bag End D210BX-N is nothing unusual, other than it appears to be somewhat obscure. I don't see why anyone would advise against this cab, other than it's a bit heavy...and I am guessing it's fairly expensive as well. Overall I would expect it to be very HiFi sounding. If that's what you are after, you might love it. If you want a more traditional sound try one of the S15 variants.
I do think it's a good idea to audition gear before you buy. It does not really matter if millions of people think a rig is great, you may hate it. The first rig I ever bought was a brand new MTI era Ampeg SVT and 810, and it was a bad choice for me. I had never heard or seen an SVT, but I wanted the best. I read a lot of reviews and articles and everyone's description/opinion made is seem like it produced the perfect sound, so I had one special ordered.
When I came in, the store gave me a call so I could come play it. I actually wondered if it was damaged or counterfeit. No disrespect to all the people who love this rig, but to my ears they sound terrible. For record I have played through several SVT/810 rigs since then and the all sound pretty much the same, so the MTI was fine. There was nothing wrong with it; it's just not my sound.
edwinhurwitz
Supporting Member
Well, since my name has been invoked here, I'll chime in. The biggest factor in tone is the player, so I would suggest spending your money (and time) on finding something that is clean, relatively lightweight (which Bag End is not) and relatively inexpensive. Lots of good suggestions in this thread for items from Mesa, Bergantino, etc. Phil is even using Hartke a fair amount these days, which I initially found kind of horrifying since my experience with the brand has been pretty negative, but again, the single biggest factor is the player. So get a decent working rig, practice a bunch, work on your interplay with the band, and then keep your eyes out on CL, etc., for an Alembic pre at great price. Another option along those lines is the SMS CTP. I have one (actually, the first demo before production started) and it does what one channel of an Alembic F-2B does at a lower cost and with a few more options. Plus, Brad will build it to suit your tonal goals, if you talk with him. [Invalid or Expired Link Removed]
It's a great preamp! But, as also noted, there are many other preamps that use the same tone stack.
As far as versatility of the tone controls go, that's a different discussion. In my view, the Fender stack isn't meant to be versatile in the same way a parametric is. It's meant for coloring and broadly shaping the tone. It does that very well. If you need a more surgical eq, there are plenty of options out there (Phil uses a Meyer CP-10, which can be found pretty cheaply, just make sure it's the model that will correctly interface with a bass rig). My philosophy is that if I need that kind of surgical EQ, there's generally some other problem for which I'm trying to compensate, so I try to fix it at the source. One of the benefits of playing through a good in ear system, is that you get to hear a much more accurate representation of what the bass sounds like going to the FOH than just about any bass speaker cabinet will give you. Colored cabs like the Bag End bass cabs can give you a pleasing sound on stage, if you like what they do, but it will probably bear little resemblance to what your bass sounds like out front after going through the PA (and the ears of the sound person). Consequently, I've tried to get bass cabinets that are flat sounding, which have included fEARful cabs and now I play through a Mike Arnopol Soundworks Flex 210.
If you are going for a tone based on what Phil goes for, the only thing I would say is to avoid Ampeg and other brands that emulate the Ampeg tone (such as Markbass). While Ampeg does what it does brilliantly, it's generally a very colored sound and doesn't get totally clean.
All that said, my favorite Bag End cabinet is a Bag End II single 15. They haven't been made in decades and mine is held together with Bondo or some other nonsense a previous owner applied to it, but with a JBL K140 it sounds really nice, it's very light, and puts out quite a bit of sound without blowing up. I've been looking for another for a long time, but they seem to be very rare.
In general, my power amp is a Quilter Bass Block. 800 watts in a ridiculously small and light package and if I need to, it works well as a stand alone head. I'm using either a Groove Tubes Studio Bass preamp or Alembic F-2B. Both sound great and it's interesting that despite the very different topologies, I still sound pretty much the same through both of them. Which brings me back to my original point....
It's a great preamp! But, as also noted, there are many other preamps that use the same tone stack.
As far as versatility of the tone controls go, that's a different discussion. In my view, the Fender stack isn't meant to be versatile in the same way a parametric is. It's meant for coloring and broadly shaping the tone. It does that very well. If you need a more surgical eq, there are plenty of options out there (Phil uses a Meyer CP-10, which can be found pretty cheaply, just make sure it's the model that will correctly interface with a bass rig). My philosophy is that if I need that kind of surgical EQ, there's generally some other problem for which I'm trying to compensate, so I try to fix it at the source. One of the benefits of playing through a good in ear system, is that you get to hear a much more accurate representation of what the bass sounds like going to the FOH than just about any bass speaker cabinet will give you. Colored cabs like the Bag End bass cabs can give you a pleasing sound on stage, if you like what they do, but it will probably bear little resemblance to what your bass sounds like out front after going through the PA (and the ears of the sound person). Consequently, I've tried to get bass cabinets that are flat sounding, which have included fEARful cabs and now I play through a Mike Arnopol Soundworks Flex 210.
If you are going for a tone based on what Phil goes for, the only thing I would say is to avoid Ampeg and other brands that emulate the Ampeg tone (such as Markbass). While Ampeg does what it does brilliantly, it's generally a very colored sound and doesn't get totally clean.
All that said, my favorite Bag End cabinet is a Bag End II single 15. They haven't been made in decades and mine is held together with Bondo or some other nonsense a previous owner applied to it, but with a JBL K140 it sounds really nice, it's very light, and puts out quite a bit of sound without blowing up. I've been looking for another for a long time, but they seem to be very rare.
In general, my power amp is a Quilter Bass Block. 800 watts in a ridiculously small and light package and if I need to, it works well as a stand alone head. I'm using either a Groove Tubes Studio Bass preamp or Alembic F-2B. Both sound great and it's interesting that despite the very different topologies, I still sound pretty much the same through both of them. Which brings me back to my original point....
You may also like to consider the Avalon U5. I have vintage Demeter, VTB-201. I say vintage because he did not even use screen print for the labels. That preamp , along with what my buddy has in terms of Alembic, FX-1 F2-B, 2 -3 Demeters, Summit Audio and REDDI. The one that stood out was the Avalon U5 for electric bass. For my taste anyway, and a lot of bass players that tried his rig felt the same.
One thing to consider also is Frenzel. He has a preamp that you can use for both guitar and bass, or he could make it bass specific for you. Good value, hand wired and made in Texas. He can sub 6SL7 octal tubes and you have a poor man's Monique. I have one of his guitar amps with 6SL7 preamp tubes and I barely touch my other tube amp. I have tracked bass using that guitar amp (using bass cabs)
One thing to consider also is Frenzel. He has a preamp that you can use for both guitar and bass, or he could make it bass specific for you. Good value, hand wired and made in Texas. He can sub 6SL7 octal tubes and you have a poor man's Monique. I have one of his guitar amps with 6SL7 preamp tubes and I barely touch my other tube amp. I have tracked bass using that guitar amp (using bass cabs)
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Here’s another vote for the old Demeter VT 201B if you can find one and stay your current tone quest (as described). They’re not as precious / pricey as Alembic and have an easily-grasped EQ. …one of my faves back in the day.
Now I understand why you’re looking into the Alembic preamp route.
Too bad you’re starting on a Spoiler; true to its name, it will spoil you for pretty much any other basses!
So you're a fan of the Spoiler?! What about a Series 1?
Now I understand why you’re looking into the Alembic preamp route.
Too bad you’re starting on a Spoiler; true to its name, it will spoil you for pretty much any other basses!
So is the main diff between the F-2b and the SMS CTP that the latter has only 1 channel compared with two for the Alembic? If I'm running say a 1x18 and a 2x10, do I need two channels?
If I were making any serious money playing, I would get just about any Alembic I could get my hands on. Great instruments made by great people. I really had no business touring their facility as a clueless 19-year-old, but they treated me like I belonged there, and for 20 years I have told whoever would listen just how much I appreciated the courtesy they showed me. They let me play a bass belonging to Lenny Kravitz (a series something or other) and ooh, was it sweet. I like the Spoiler shape best but I haven’t met an Alembic I didn’t like. Out of necessity, I will stick to production instruments for the foreseeable future and I will do just fine, but a Spoiler would be dreamy.
You don't need a two channel preamp to run two cabs. But if you go with the cabs you originally indicated, you need an INFRA processor for the sub, and two channels of amplification.
After reading the specs on the INFRA processor, it looks to me like a glorified active crossover and would be totally overkill in your application.(jmho) I've owned the F1-X (should have never sold it) and used it in a bi-amp configuration back in the 90's with a Hartke 4.5XL on the top and a 1x15XL on the bottom. I used a QSC USA 850 to power both. A F1-X with a class D stereo power amp would be killer with the 2 Bag End speakers you are considering. Also, there are many power amps with a built in crossover that will let you bi-amp with any pre-amp. You can, of course, run both cabs full range but you'll need a separate amp for each cab because of the impedance mismatch.
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I asked for feedback here a little while ago, and this is what it turned into- Latest: instrumentlevel
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