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Band expenses

#102
I'm just some jaggoff so dont listen to me, but the only contracts I would sign protect everyone signing it. This only protects the manager and gives that person a ticket to fire anyone arbitrarily. You'd be surprised how easily you can be ousted from a band. Rarely is it about music. If it were me I'd never sign that. I'd tell them to book gigs that pay and use that money for their videos. Remember, operating costs for gigs should include gas (they'll be further away the more success you find) and equipment (strings sticks heads and cables all take a hit when you gig).
 
#103
mattbass6945 said:
seems to me like they don't need management. band isn't that old, isn't making money, why do they have a manager? sounds to me like they are putting the cart before the horse. they may need direction, but it doesn't sound like they need a manager. much less a manager who doesn't seem like they know the business.
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Maybe, maybe not, in High School our “Manager” helped get gigs and schlep gear, and of yap like a barking dog about inane BS once in a while.
 
#105
vqlt said:
My son really enjoys the band and the friendships.
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He can continue to enjoy the band and the friendships, if the mom backs off and lets kids play in the band for free like every other band (instead of making other kids pay hundreds of dollars for the privilege of hanging out with her oh-so-talented child). She is sucking the life/fun out of what should be a high-school rite of passage.

Unless your son is writing the lyrics/melody, he gets no songwriter credit and is never going to be seeing a penny in royalties.
 
#107
My concern would be that it's a 'hobby' for your son and probably the other guys in the band, but its a business for the singer and the mom. Those are very different things...and the people involved will treat them differently.

I feel like you're setting your son up for some disappointment and frustration in the long run, and you're paying into someone's 'business' as a hobby. I don't find them compatible in a bunch of ways.

In terms of 'band' stuff, I would never join a band where I didn't have some say in how things were managed, even if that was to the detriment of expediency when it comes to goals.
 
#108
BurningSkies said:
I feel like you're setting your son up for some disappointment and frustration in the long run, and you're paying into someone's 'business' as a hobby. I don't find them compatible in a bunch of ways.
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My concern as well. How healthy is this for your son? Unless he realizes the inequity of the arrangement he may get the idea that this is the way things are done, or worse that he is a part of an up and coming band with a future. I would have serious misgivings about my son being involved with this because it is most likely going to end badly for him. Not to mention the cost of his "lesson".

You can't buy his success regardless of what the manager/mom says or how much she spends. He needs to be realistic about his future in this band and act accordingly. I think the contract idea is in your best interest, and it should show just how honest the stage mom is going to be in the future when and if the band starts to make money. I digress; Danger Will Robinson!
 
#109
If the band were gigging and had been getting good reviews I could see spending this amount (if I had it...) to help get some momentum out of posting regularly to Youtube, etc... but not for a start up band with no/minimal experience. And certainly not on my dime when I have no control of the product, have no method for recouping the investment (for you it is an investment...), and no protection against arbitrary firing (no clearly defined rules of conduct), they are going to spend money on someone to manage the Youtube posts??? This is just wrong on many levels. With all due respect sir, I cannot caution you enough on this. Your son needs to have his eyes opened here. Friends are one thing, business is an entirely different thing. Let him be in the band, just protect yourself financially and prepare him for the inevitable.
 
#111
vqlt said:
Jive1,
Wish I could have you as their manager!
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Even though you are being too kind, I'm sure I could do better with that 10%.

I use a booking agent, and I pay him 15%. His goal is to get me higher paying gigs, so he can get better commission. If all he got me were non-paying gigs, or gigs that I had to pay out of pocket for, I wouldn't hire him. Actually no-one would hire him. Say you hired a salesman for 10% commission, but they also kept the 90% as well. In this case, the 10% commission is moot. For practical purposes, the number is 100% because you aren't seeing a penny.

Here's another way to look at it. Say your son wanted to work at a fun restaurant with all his friends but the waiters had to pay for the utilities and food, but didn't get a paycheck either.

I know you say it's a hobby and I totally understand that. Parents pay money for their kids to play organized sports, clubs, orchestra, etc.. But, part of the reason why you pay is so they can develop. Do you think your son will really develop in this band? Does this manager really know what she's doing and can show him the ropes? Is there someone in the band that can help him develop musically? What's he taking away from this when the band dissolves? What are the chances that this leaves a sour taste in his mouth?

And even though you may look at it as being for fun, someone else obviously isn't and that may someday be a point of disagreement because priorities are different. If this was just purely for fun, there wouldn't be all the rules and contracts.

From a business perspective, the whole deal stinks. There's really no way to pretty it up. No way I or my parents would go for it. But, I'm not there in your shoes, so I'm not seeing what you're seeing. I hope that if you do go ahead with it that your kid has a lot of fun and gets a lot from the experience. And if not, a better agreement or opportunity comes along.
 
#113
On the other hand... What we know is that the band has been going for 4 years and its videos are getting 300k plus hits on YouTube - that is not to be sneezed at!

Two things haven't been asked: why did the previous bassist leave if it's doing so well? And, the obvious one: link to the video, please?

At the end of the day manager/mom appears to have a thought through plan and it's costed out (just how well thought through the plan and how they will cover additional unexpected expenses going forward, remains to be seen.

I still don't really understand how a band that is getting the results on YouTube that this one apparently is, has no source of income from live shows and merch though.

For the OP, this is a gamble. So long as you go into it with your eyes open, and follow the first, usually ignored, rule of gambling: only bet what you can afford to lose, then what the heck? Just be aware that it has the potential to be a money pit!
 
#114
pipFunk said:
I still don't really understand how a band that is getting the results on YouTube that this one apparently is, has no source of income from live shows and merch though.
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Because their fanbase watches videos on YouTube they have little incentive to go to a live show and pay real money. They are getting what they want for free. Also those YouTube viewers could be spread out geographically pretty far so that there is no real concentration of fans in the real world. That would be my guess.

Personallly I am in the no way would I pay camp. At that age joining a band should not cost money, If he wants to have the band experience I am sure he can find some guys to play with.
 
#115
Sounds to me like they want your son as a hired gun, but without actually paying him.When I had my first "serious" band (we were all 18yo), we all did everything. Book gigs, find rehearsal space, hire PA, draw fliers, hand them out, etc etc etc. But we played at least once a week in a bar or club and all the money left over after paying for stuff was divided 5 ways. We even hired a guy with a camera once, and he gave us a VHS of the gig!
 
#116
Hi,

vqlt said:
Yes, my first thought is that we are bankrolling her daughters dream that is what makes me leery of this situation. I'm going to monitor the situation closely. Hopefully some of the expenses are tax deductible. Thanks for all the advice
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I'll admit I haven't read all the responses. It's late and I must get horizontal. :p

I play in a semi-pro cover band for corporate events, casinos, county fairs, private parties, showcases, etc. We play high-dollar gigs. We had our promo video and pictures done for way less and the band leader paid for it all. That's why the band leader takes a bigger cut of the take, to cover expenses. We do only one promo video a year to keep it fresh. Last year I made over $15,000 playing music part time and all I paid for was gas and some new gear.

This just sounds like a scam. Maybe not intentional, but your thoughts above are very similar to mine. I'd think twice about investing in this project. Or at least consider it a no-return investment, a donation, with no hope of ever making any money. You'll have to talk to your tax professional to determine allowed deductions. I deduct my allowed expenses, mileage, some meals, new gear and maintenance, hotels (if not comped), some clothing, etc.

Why did the last bass player leave?


Thank you for your indulgence,

BassCliff
 
#118
Just to put things in perspective, if you were to make a $7000 investment in my band I'd hire your son to play bass on the road, pay him $100 a show, let him tour the country, and return him to you after a year being ten times the musician he is now. This is not an opportunity, it's a scam to fund the "manager's" daughter's career. If you're paying in then you should get some ownership in return, otherwise you're just paying someone so that your son can have the price ledge of being a hired gun for free.
 
#119
I would contact the previous bass player and hear his side of the story.
Unless your son is an exceptional musician he will probably be replaced the moment he or you start rocking the boat.
I predict that when the first gig is booked the "manager" will be asking for a substantial contribution to purchase a PA etc.
 
#120
vqlt said:
we will be signing a band member agreement which indicates the following:
band entity is owned by the band manager
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So the manager owns the band, not the members.

songs written by the band remain property of the band.
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But the manager owns the band entity, right? Presumably meaning she can hire and fire members. So if your son contributes to writing a song, he doesn't retain any rights in the song because it belongs to the manager, and if he quits or they fire him he doesn't have rights to anything.

complete songs written by a band member remain the band members ownership
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All right, an admission here of a way for your son to remain owner of a song - if he writes the whole thing. Here I would raise a question; what exactly constitutes "writing a whole song?" Does he need to compose every element of it, every drumbeat and hit of a snare? My understanding is that in law "writing a song" generally means just lyrics and melodies. I would make sure that's explicit, otherwise he may find this clause denying him ownership because the drummer played a beat your son didn't write out.

Also, there is the practical matter - what assurance is there that the band will actually record and sell songs your son composes? I can see that in theory it's good that he would own whatever he writes, but in practice, since the band is so clearly the manager's project, management has no incentive to promote anything he writes.

money earned from gigs will be placed in a fund for operating cost
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Wait, what? So your son is expected to play paying gigs, but instead of getting paid for them, give the money to the manager?

manager agreement: manager gets 10% commission only for work obtained by band manager where the band or members represent the band.
the agreement does not apply for work obtained by the band member not related to the band or work not obtained by the manager
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Well, I'm glad the manager isn't laying claim to money they had nothing to do with earning, that aren't even part of this project. But I don't get the 10% commission, because the prior clause you mentioned said that all the band's gig money goes to the band fund for "operating expenses." So based on what you've told us, if the band gets a paying gig, the manager gets 10% for themselves, the "operating expenses" get the rest, and the band members get nothing.

the wording seems pretty straight forward. It appears they are trying to be on the up and up. If anything in the language seems bothersome please let me know!
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OK, since you're abbreviating the agreement to post on a forum, maybe you've left something out. Based on the points you mentioned here, this looks like one of those lousy exploitative contracts you often hear musicians complain about. If there are any other clauses in the agreement that actually protect band members' interests or provide for how they get paid, I'd like to hear it.
 

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