Band Leader Dilemna...

[jive1]

Why would they go with the drummer? They've all become buddies.

Does the singer or guitarist really want to haul the drummer and his gear to every rehearsal and gig? I guess they will have to. I also assume they will be asking their new bassist, when they get one, to drive him around too. One of the best things to come out of this is I no longer have to deal with a carless drummer. I won't put myself in that position again.
Does the guitarist, drummer, or singer have a PA? Nope
Does the guitarist, drummer, or singer book gigs? The drummer has led bands before, but he is from out of Province (moved here two yrs ago) so he doesnt quite understand how the venues operate around here. He is looking for ALOT more money than they will pay and hence has booked only one gig.
Is any of them capable of organizing a band? The drummer is. He can do all the work now. Ha.
Are any of them capable of producing promo materials? Probably. Essentially, the singer and guitarist do nothing but show up and play their instruments. If they go with the drummer he will be doing everything.

The guitarist has emailed just a short while ago and has said that he is out and I am guessing the singer is too. I have some thinking to do. I know for sure that I am finished with being a band leader so I guess my only other option is to join or collaborate with another group. The thing that sucks is that I have alot of drive and ideas to bring to the table, but I just cant deal with the drama on an ongoing basis.

But they will need to re-establish themselves, and since you have a band name, logo, website, gigs under your belt, etc. you have a leg up.

My suggestion is after you've given it some thought, and you decide to go with the bandleader thing again, get yourself a deep bench of players and don't be afraid to replace someone if necessary.

 

[kpc]

Unfortunately, the band leader must run the band like a business. Thru my many years of playing, I've learned that the band leader is much like the business owner. You have to assign jobs and pay accordingly. After forming and loosing many bands I have learned this. I now play in a show band and it is run just like a business. It just has to be that way from the get-go.....good luck in the future.

 

[cableguy]

Sorry to hear about the band Torin. Sounds like it may be for the best. But like another poster said, you have all the band stuff like website, name, promo stuff, etc. The style of music you played fit your audience great. The car shows and such. But there are a lot of people out there that can play that style, especially if there's bookings and a following. Learn from this, and if you do the work like before, take another cut. If you want thing more evenly split, make sure the new guys do their share. Also the old guitarist didn't even quit face to face? An e-mail.....that says a lot right there. Good luck.

 

[JohnMCA72]

Why would they go with the drummer? They've all become buddies.

Does the singer or guitarist really want to haul the drummer and his gear to every rehearsal and gig? I guess they will have to. I also assume they will be asking their new bassist, when they get one, to drive him around too. One of the best things to come out of this is I no longer have to deal with a carless drummer. I won't put myself in that position again.
Does the guitarist, drummer, or singer have a PA? Nope
Does the guitarist, drummer, or singer book gigs? The drummer has led bands before, but he is from out of Province (moved here two yrs ago) so he doesnt quite understand how the venues operate around here. He is looking for ALOT more money than they will pay and hence has booked only one gig.
Is any of them capable of organizing a band? The drummer is. He can do all the work now. Ha.
Are any of them capable of producing promo materials? Probably. Essentially, the singer and guitarist do nothing but show up and play their instruments. If they go with the drummer he will be doing everything.

The guitarist has emailed just a short while ago and has said that he is out and I am guessing the singer is too. I have some thinking to do. I know for sure that I am finished with being a band leader so I guess my only other option is to join or collaborate with another group. The thing that sucks is that I have alot of drive and ideas to bring to the table, but I just cant deal with the drama on an ongoing basis.

Sounds to me like you're better off without them.

One more lesson, perhaps: Try not to let the pressure build up until something blows. Let it out a little bit at a time.

I really don't know why, but it seems to be just so common in bands that nobody wants to have "the discussion" & puts it off as long as possible (if not longer). The more stuff you can hash out & settle up front, the better.

The business of making music is a lot like music itself: You wouldn't start to play a song if you had no idea of the key, chord progressions, verses, bridge, chorus, melody, lyrics, tempo, rhythm, etc. would you? Yet a lot of musicians run their bands with just that level of cluelessness.

 

[jive1]

This happened to me last Saturday night, although the bully on the scene was someone else. As you mentioned in the OP, I did all bookings, managed all money & business, ate the tax bite for everyone, created and maintained the website, own the full PA, own the trailer, typically did a major part of the setups and on and on. I did all of this while absorbing 90% of the business expenses for the band and got paid nothing additional for doing it....(It was my preference too....thought I was being a good guy)....

I think sometimes some people just resent this kind of giving. After awhile they begin to feel obligated to you and this makes them feel crowded and they have to move on. Unfortunately, it's the good guy that they single out as the problem and take it out on, and because you think you're doing the right thing, it hurts even more.

This is the second time this sort of thing has happened to me in the past ten years.

I went to work on Sunday in a phenomenal blues band that is one of two who have been recruiting me for the past several months, so I know the split had nothing to do with my playing. I'm a side man from now on. I'm happy to let someone else handle all the other stuff and will thank them for it while I'm thinking about the next groove.

Sometimes you can just try too hard and give too much. And, it just doesn't work well that way.

It is disgusting and depressing, but you'll get over it. Just learn the lesson.

Good luck.

Koog

I've been there, done that, and this is what I have learned:
You would think people would put work into the things they love, and that if not much was required of them they would love it more. But IME, it's the opposite that is true. You love the things you put work into and require something from you. It's hard to have passion for something you don't invest in, and if your band-members don't invest, it's easy for them to either get lazy, take things for granted, and/or act in a way that's detrimental. It's much easier to throw away or abuse something you got for free than something you paid for or built.

Like, I said earlier, if you are going to do all the work, take an extra cut. If they don't respect or value your work, at least you are getting compensated. If you have to give an equal cut to get the players for your band, you are setting yourself up for getting players who won't appreciate the work you put in. If it's clear in the beginning that you are taking an extra cut, you may lose out on some folks, but in the end you will have guys who understand and/or accept the extra cut for the extra work.

 

[jive1]

I'd like to share another thing I have learned over time:

Beware of "democracies".
Most of them start out that way, and over time the most driven person in the band will wind up doing most of the work anyway. The problem is that they do unequal work for equal say and pay. Although it's good to get input from your bandmates, if one person is doing most of the work, it's not effective. For example, one person does most of the booking, but the rest of the band offers input that is counter to the feedback received by potential clients. The booker is outvoted by the rest of the band constantly, and the band wonders why they can't get any gigs. Another example is bandmates talking about PA upgrades when one member is footing the bill or has to transport it.

Even when you get a distribution of labor, it's not uncommon to have at least one guy be the slacker of the band. When you get that, you create a dynamic that will eventually diminish the motivation of the entire band. It's one thing to have an employee be that way, it's another for a part-owner to be.

IME, band democracies work the best when you still have incentives for those who put in extra work. Even a band that's owned jointly can still give an extra cut to the person who provides the PA, books the gigs, etc. People have differing levels of commitment, energy, resources, availability, passion, etc. and it's extremely difficult to get them to all coalesce in a somewhat equal manner.

I'm not saying that dictatorships are necessarily the best way either. It also has it's limitations, but at least people know where they stand. When you know where you stand, it's much easier to act accordingly.

A democracy can work as well or better than hard dicators, benevolent dictators, combo of owners/hired guns, etc. You just need to set expectations and ground rules clearly from the beginning.

 

[Matt Wilson]

Hey sorry bro. That sucks. Being in bands in Vancouver is often hell. It is the twilight zone of music.

 

[Munjibunga]

+1

I also find that it's a whole lot easier to book yourself than a band.

Jive, where's your hat?

 

[loopee]

I'll agree with that.....

In any case, you've got the band name, website, etc....in time you'll hopefully find others and get the band gigging again.....

Hey sorry bro. That sucks. Being in bands in Vancouver is often hell. It is the twilight zone of music.

 

[Munjibunga]

I'd like to share another thing I have learned over time:

Beware of "democracies".
Most of them start out that way, and over time the most driven person in the band will wind up doing most of the work anyway. The problem is that they do unequal work for equal say and pay. Although it's good to get input from your bandmates, if one person is doing most of the work, it's not effective. For example, one person does most of the booking, but the rest of the band offers input that is counter to the feedback received by potential clients. The booker is outvoted by the rest of the band constantly, and the band wonders why they can't get any gigs. Another example is bandmates talking about PA upgrades when one member is footing the bill or has to transport it.

Even when you get a distribution of labor, it's not uncommon to have at least one guy be the slacker of the band. When you get that, you create a dynamic that will eventually diminish the motivation of the entire band. It's one thing to have an employee be that way, it's another for a part-owner to be.

IME, band democracies work the best when you still have incentives for those who put in extra work. Even a band that's owned jointly can still give an extra cut to the person who provides the PA, books the gigs, etc. People have differing levels of commitment, energy, resources, availability, passion, etc. and it's extremely difficult to get them to all coalesce in a somewhat equal manner.

I'm not saying that dictatorships are necessarily the best way either. It also has it's limitations, but at least people know where they stand. When you know where you stand, it's much easier to act accordingly.

A democracy can work as well or better than hard dicators, benevolent dictators, combo of owners/hired guns, etc. You just need to set expectations and ground rules clearly from the beginning.

In my current band, the drummer is the leader. In most of my past bands, I have been the de facto leader. No one appointed me as that, but I just did the things that needed to be done. However, everything was by consensus. I even ran my engineering company that way, with board members and employees all having important input. I've always known that there are plenty of people out there with better ideas than mine, so dictatorship is a waste of resources.

Anyway, I really dig having someone else be the leader. I still get to voice my opinions, but the last word comes from the boss. I don't always agree with his decisions (but seldom disagree), but he's the boss. The key to leadership is the ability to sort the wheat from the chaff of ideas, and get everyone on board. Promoting a bad idea that you happen to like is leadership suicide. Sometimes you have to go with the flow.

You can't be a leader just because you say you are or because you own the PA. It's a matter of knowing the personalities of the other members and using that knowledge constructively to take the band in a positive direction.

 

[Muttleybass]

Well, the band is done. The drummer has called me a rude, condescending, argumentative bully (very far from the truth if you ask anyone who knows me) and quit. He has been in the band about 3 months but its highly likely he is going to scoop the singer and guitarist and start another band with a new bassist.

There goes a TON of work down the drain. This whole thing is very upsetting and depressing.

Why is the band done? I can give you the numbers of at least 3 pro drummers that can fill in. Heck, my guy might want to do it. Most pros will do it for $100 a night. I've got at least two others that might do it for an equal cut.

At least that will get you through until you find a permanant guy. Drummers are easy to replace... find another one. Want some names?

Dude, you own the band. Just because a member leaves doesn't mean you can't keep going.

 

[Muttleybass]

The guitarist has emailed just a short while ago and has said that he is out and I am guessing the singer is too. I have some thinking to do. I know for sure that I am finished with being a band leader so I guess my only other option is to join or collaborate with another group. The thing that sucks is that I have alot of drive and ideas to bring to the table, but I just cant deal with the drama on an ongoing basis.[/COLOR]

Have you talked to him face to face? Did he say why he's out? Are you even sure the singer is out?

IMO, this is your chance to prove you're a leader. You've come this far, why stop now? Dude, this is what being a leader is all about. It's a business. In any business, employees come and go. As a band leader, you need to view the band as a liquid, evolving entity. It doesn't much matter WHO is in it as long as they can do the job.

Keep your gigs, find new players and keep going. Learn from your mistakes. You already have everything in place including a set list. You should be able to email it to the new guys and be up and running in a couple of weeks.

Let me know if you need some names.


...and don't worry about changing the pictures until you get some people that are working out. Just use what you have in the meantime.

 

[Factor88]

Why would they go with the drummer?

Does the singer or guitarist really want to haul the drummer and his gear to every rehearsal and gig?
Does the guitarist, drummer, or singer have a PA?
Does the guitarist, drummer, or singer book gigs?
Is any of them capable of organizing a band?
Are any of them capable of producing promo materials?

If the answer is no, then you really don't have much to worry about.

And yet it looks like in spite of this, the other members are still walking away from a situation where someone else is doing alot of the heavy lifting but they are still getting equal pay.

I'm not trying to be a d-bag, but isn't one obvious possible explanation that the OP really is, as described by the drummer, a rude, condescending, argumentative bully? Certainly he doesn't seem to be in his posts on TB, but that doesn't mean he was like that when dealing with people in "his" band.

 

[the yeti]

And yet it looks like in spite of this, the other members are still walking away from a situation where someone else is doing alot of the heavy lifting but they are still getting equal pay.

I'm not trying to be a d-bag, but isn't one obvious possible explanation that the OP really is, as described by the drummer, a rude, condescending, argumentative bully? Certainly he doesn't seem to be in his posts on TB, but that doesn't mean he was like that when dealing with people in "his" band.

sure, it's possible. i'll go so far as to concede that another person's perspective always has some merit. even if that person is completely off base.

one thing is certain, if the op had the idea, the pa, the promotion, and the booking it is his band. no "" needed.

whether it remains his depends on his next step. if you move forward with new player(s), i think you owe it to everyone (especially yourself) to be very upfront about the management structure.

 

[Factor88]

one thing is certain, if the op had the idea, the pa, the promotion, and the booking it is his band. no "" needed.

Agreed, it was a misuse of quotes on my part. I was trying to stress that the OP's interactions with TB might be differnt then interactions with people when he is their boss. I did not mean to imply that I didn't think he is the band leader.

 

[JohnMCA72]

I've been there, done that, and this is what I have learned:
You would think people would put work into the things they love, and that if not much was required of them they would love it more. But IME, it's the opposite that is true. You love the things you put work into and require something from you. It's hard to have passion for something you don't invest in, and if your band-members don't invest, it's easy for them to either get lazy, take things for granted, and/or act in a way that's detrimental. It's much easier to throw away or abuse something you got for free than something you paid for or built.
...

Great observation, that probably explains a lot of stuff (not limited to this particular discussion).

 

[fingerbun]

In my day job I'm management in a large corporation and could write volumes on how what I know there applies to OP's situation. But a couple of quick comments.

First, the fact that others are walking away doesn't prove that the OP has treated them badly in any way. Other possible explanations include that he didn't manage their expectations correctly, or just they didn't have enough common ground on how things should be.

Second, there is a whole raft of science on different ways to exert power and a lot of it is about understanding yourself, understanding how the team responds, and the dynamics of the situation. The notion of saying "I book the gigs, I do the PA, it's my band, shut up and do it my way." doesn't work in all contexts, and in my corporation would be seen as a trait of a manager who needs to change their style. Think how you are going to feel if you are on the receiving end of that. Most people are happiest when they have a sense of control and the freedom to try hard at something they really care about, within clearly defined boundaries. A lot of large corporations (mine included) invest in helping each manager understand his or her style with ideas for how to make the most of it, and give the team ability to feedback on their boss as an input to their staff appraisal, which can lead to some painful but useful moments.

Third, OP, consider that the drummer tried to book a gig, and it became an issue. I understand you are not available but here are many here who would say "No big deal, hire another bass player for the night. Why should the rest of the band miss a night's work because one guy wants to go AWOL?" So rather than seeing you as doing all the work, they could see you as a control freak that won't let it go. This is reinforced, to me, by your earlier comment "He does it my way or he's out". Yes, I have the same attitude in my day job...in the final analysis if you work for me and I require something, then either you do it my way or someone else does it my way...but I very rarely have to draw a line like that and usually if I do there is a deeper structural problem that needs addressing.

One thing you could try - if you are game - is to say to the rest of the band..."I think we have something really good here. Can we talk about it?" But you should only do that if you are able to take negative feedback (possibly unfairly and painfully negative) without losing it or retaliating.

Hope this helps. This is really a very short taste of an incredibly long but useful topic.

 

[the yeti]

Agreed, it was a misuse of quotes on my part. I was trying to stress that the OP's interactions with TB might be differnt then interactions with people when he is their boss. I did not mean to imply that I didn't think he is the band leader.

for my part, i probably shouldn't of jumped in so hard. you raise a good point, also a touchy one.

 

[the yeti]

In my day job I'm management in a large corporation and could write volumes on how what I know there applies to OP's situation. But a couple of quick comments...

...Hope this helps. This is really a very short taste of an incredibly long but useful topic.

i agree that some of those management techniques can apply, but i wonder (too much probably) how much of it? personally i hate when someone tries to use a technique obviously learned from managers training on me. of course, if everyone felt that way they wouldn't be very good techniques i guess.

if there's a chance of salvaging this thing though (with the current line-up), reaching out and finding some common ground is it. be warned, it can be pretty ugly. but it can also be worth it.

otoh, a drummer w/o transport?

 

[jive1]

otoh, a drummer w/o transport?

Probably one without a girlfriend.