Band says NO Amp or Cab needed.

[Honch]

Yamaha 2x15 PA powered mixer? That's a tell tale right there for bad sound. In anything, not just bass or electric guitar.
If a band should go this route it takes demands and requirements on PA, and it will cost the band some serious dough. That will out-cost individual members budget of their own individual amps.

You should invest in powered speakers first and foremost. Not powered mixers. The speakers ought to preferably be of anything "not-Yamaha" believe it or not. AND the most important thing, some kind of coaxial thing with the tweeters inside the huge 15 inch speaker driver, for full phase coherent axis at all frequencies. Like the Italian RCF speakers, or even the Germans DB system or T&W. Those last two are terribly expensive though, but you'll just need two of them and no monitors on stage. Huge 15 inch pa speakers on stands removes the floor coupling that a bass cab can get, and that thing is mostly an advantage. You need a good combined preamp/di box to be able to pull it through. And maybe the DI out from your combo are sufficient enough. While I've heard decent guitar sounds out of DI into PA systems, either through modelling or AxeFx Ultra or Kemper profiling boxes, I think bass guitar still have some ways to go before it is just nailed directly into pa/DI.

Skip the BOSE systems with the "chimneys" and so on. There's no punch in them whatever you try to do. Just limiting induced sound.

Yamaha speaker drivers always had a bad rap since the NS-10. If you can make a mix sound good in those, it will just sound better on everything else. I remember reading the technical rider of late guitarist Michael Hedges, what he required as a backline and PA when touring. It clearly said "No Yamaha please!" regarding both monitors and FOH PA systems. Even reverbs. And that was ANY Yamaha regardles of how much high-end the Yamahas were. But that was in the late 80s and all through 90s. Things may have happened since then though.

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Mind you, it isn't impossible in any way. Recent tour of prog stalwarts King Crimson with legendary Tony Levin on bass, runs it all through PA and moddeling system. They're seven people on stage, three drummers, with Robert Fripp with his refrigerator sized rack system. The only thing you see on stage are some small floor monitors. I e Tony runs all through PA. And from the reviews, the sound was cracking!

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Tony's in the middle on upright. But that is as professional as it gets. But I'll bet a dollar that not anything is Yamaha speaker wise...;-)

 

[Honch]

Thanks for the feedback! I think I'm going to research a Preamp/DI pedal. Suggestions?

There's a plethora of good preamp/DI pedals, SansAmp Tech 21 VT has already been mentioned which is good. GK has this brand new one, with tuner built in, I don't know if it has hit the market as of yet. GK Plex something...EBS makes a great one with real tubes in it. RADIAL is not to be forgotten, but they're expensive but does the job in spades.

1. Tech 21 VT BASS DI

2. GK Plex DI/Preamp/Tuner:

3. EBS Preamp/DI :

4. RADIAL ToneBone:

THERE ARE OTHERS! But I do like those ones with built in tuners. Saves you some time upon stage.

 

[George_Wright]

A warning sign for me is a guitarist who DI's personally I have found that this leads to a serious condition called "poo tone". Also Im a little bit confused is everyone going through the PA? because if so that is a terrible idea and im amazed the PA hasn't already blown out. As having (and im presuming a bit here) a guitar, bass and vocals running through a single PA will make the PA start Ducking and compress all inputs making them lose fidelity. Id absolutely use your own amp and recommend the guitarist does the same. looking forward to the reply im quite interested to see how this turns out.

 

[bearhart74]

Lucky you . My plan was to Di from my amp to the mixer and through the bands 1200watt PA but according to our muppet drummer "Itll blow the speakers" . So now Im only through my amp which is 180 watt combo and the lead guitar player who stands right of stage to me at the other side of the drummer says he has some difficulty hearing me ! Maybe because the drummer only has one setting thats hit it as hard as you can ! I cant win . Id say Di through the amp to the mixer or at least use a Di/preamp pedal such as the Sansamp or for a hell of a lot less cash the Behringer BDI21 which is a decent peice of kit .

The drummer is wrong

 

[viper4000]

Didn't read the whole thread, but unless they are using a proper sub in the PA, you'll never get the definition you want from the low end.

 

[makaspar]

As a sound guy, it's great! I've worked for a band that goes all direct - guitars, bass, and electric drums! They use ears, so it's super easy to dial in a great PA sound (they had a great PA).

That being said - one club that they play insists on running monitors from the stage, pointed towards the audience - no stage volume means no one can hear you from the front of the stage, doesn't dance up close, and doesn't buy as many drinks.

My recommendation - go with it, ears with a good monitor board can sound great. Good board, DI/pedal board with direct out, and PA are essential, so ask them to upgrade.

 

[40Hz]

At the very least you'll probably want to drop a hi-pass filter and a compressor in-between your bass and the PA regardless. The HPF can be set to take out everything below around 200-300Hz; and the compressor to keep your instrument in line since it'll be sharing the woofer with whatever else is pushing lows - like a keyboard. You'll get a better bass sound that way as long as the speakers can handle it.

 

[rtslinger]

Yup since they said only bring your pedal make sure it is a a sanamp style modeling pedal that way you can clean up the tone you are getting. Whenever I am playing no amp shows I also have my di pre-amp with me it is a must have in everyone's gig bag.

 

[honestjohnny]

In ears is different than average PA speakers. A great DI and it still may sound like poo. For some of us our rig is part of our sound. Guitarists understand this.

Hate to say it but it's a good idea if they have the PA to do present it. If they don't then it's just a good idea. The bass is felt too. What's the guitarist doing? You know I've found articles where good engineers mic the top of a Marshall cab to pick up the the resonance of the wood.

If you have a sound that is yours and you can't bring it because of limitations shop for another band.
I showed up to an outside gig with my entire rig. The bassist in group before us was going DI only. I asked the engineer if that's what she wanted. She looked at my rig and said, "you've spent time and money assembling a quality kit, that's what we're using." Then she mic'd my cab! No DI!

I have done this ampless thing, but I use a floor modeler/MultiFX unit, so I had no trouble. Bass is heard and felt, so I would encourage you to use a subwoofer live for FOH and/or a tactile transducer board for yourself.
Essentially, it's a speaker w/o the cone that vibrates at the appropriate frequencies. You stand on the board and those vibrations are transmitted through your body. Requires much less power than pushing air. I made one with the top of a wooden TV tray stand, the transducer and a 15/15 watt stereo power amplifier. Standing on it feels like I have a full rig.

 

[Manticore]

Playing through an amp is fun, but overall it just isn't what is best for the gig in many situations. You should be able to get "your" tone through a DI, preamp, pedals, and/or modeler. If you are going through the PA (which is virtually always the case for me) your amp and cab have very little, if anything, to do with how you sound in the house. And yes, you are at the mercy of whoever is mixing the house, there is simply no way around it. You can, however, make it ultra simple for the FOH engineer to get "your" sound by providing a decent signal, and make the guy happy by not having the noise on the stage getting in the way of the mix.

The primary caveat, however, is you need a decent PA. And here's the rub: if the band is going through a sub-par PA, the whole band will sound poor, regardless of whether there are amps on stage or not. Consider this point, and it is easy to see decent PA equipment should be a first priority.

For many years I used an Alembic preamp or a REDDI DI. I picked up a Kemper modeler a few months back and have been very happy having virtually every amp and speaker combination ever made at my fingertips; I'm constantly getting very good reviews on my tone without an amp on stage. A bonus is I virtually always get a great mix on stage either through wedges or my IEM with CD-like clarity.

Anyone can get a great tone without an amp if they simply take the time to figure it out.

 

[Honch]

A warning sign for me is a guitarist who DI's personally I have found that this leads to a serious condition called "poo tone". Also Im a little bit confused is everyone going through the PA? because if so that is a terrible idea and im amazed the PA hasn't already blown out. As having (and im presuming a bit here) a guitar, bass and vocals running through a single PA will make the PA start Ducking and compress all inputs making them lose fidelity. Id absolutely use your own amp and recommend the guitarist does the same. looking forward to the reply im quite interested to see how this turns out.

I agree!
Yes, hence my idea of you should have powered speakers instead, and some professional systems, with hefty amounts of "real" wattage, and if possible no class-d amp (yes, actually). That makes ducking and compress kick in sooner. So you'll have to ramp it up to - maybe - too much overkill professional gear (the PA and speaker system) that will cost you way too much for what it's worth. Having individual amps on stage, just maybe miking them up, and run just kbs and vocals through the PA will in the end, end up in better sound at a lower price. I recommend this "ramping up" the PA to anyone who decides to go all LINE-IN onto PA exclusively. You can't get away with murder on powered mixers and regular Yamaha speaker stuff.

But as always, if both the guitarist and bassist do posses their own amps, and aren't alien towards trying it out, you can try it out, since you don't really loose anything or have to buy anything new on the spot. If it turns out sounding crap and muddy, well then, get your amps out again, line it up and use the speaker inside the combo to produce the tones and volumes you like. I do think however, bass fares better through any PA, than any guitar with fx pedals. The guitar combo amp (preferably with tubes) are sort of a part of the instrument as a whole, and the sound/timbre/sag of power amp tubes almost breaking up can be crucial in some music genres that can't really be replaced with digital fx, or modelling. Not to speak of natural feedback. And not to speak of the whole dynamics thing when leaning in with the pick. The transient response can be icepicky when just lined direct from FX rack or modelling.

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That "leaning in" on your system, and compress and ducking. The leeway and slack for headroom at the input levels at each channel on the mixer is what it is all about. If they go into red, it's a not pleasant experience for anyones ear. If you happen to whack your tube combo (guitar or bass) into the "red" it is a more pleasant experience to your ears, and all it will do is distort it pleasantly or limit/compress it pleasantly. If you have to make headroom for this at the mixer, you have to turn down the input gain so much that noise will be present. You may use inserts to a compressor/limiter but that ...well, still... limits, ducks and compresses the signal. Sounding ... in the end crap.


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Radial Tonebones bass preamp makes a statement in their FAQ which can be plausible, as much as it can be selling "mojo" and mumbo jumbo. When asked why they run their pedals at 15v 400 mA they claim the bass frequencies demands much more power than the rest of the frequencies, and thus, gives you more noise/floor headroom. I do have encountedered "limiting" on pedals with just 9v in the bass range, and even only when plugged in with their switch on bypass (cause the buffers still there). I would love to think that they could go up to at least 18v instead so one could use a voltage doubler cable on your power juice box instead. Instead of having that in between and unwieldy 15v which doesn't make sense at all.

 

[buldog5151bass]

It sounds more like the lack of a preamp/DI is the issue more than the fact that there wasn't an amp. Maybe I am missing something.

 

[strictlybass_ic]

I've never really had a "direct only" sound I was very happy with. Half the time if it's a gig you can't even hear yourself because the monitors are worthless below guitar frequencies.

 

[Honch]

Here's another one, but they are almost extortionate in price, but it's the cream of the crop.

Lehle RMI Basswitch IQ DI

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Runs from anything from 6v to 20v and you can not fry it with wrong polarity, or DC or AC. It senses what it is that you plug in with a lot of fuses and relays. Headroom to the moon and back. Some kind of idiot proof box. Hence the IQ name in it... I guess...rave reviews everywhere it goes. At a price though. German of course.

 

[39-Bassist]

Bring amp DI and run through it to see if it sounds better. Thell them you want to do this because you are not satisfied with you present sound and want the music to sound better as a whole. IF they are professionals they will let you try it at least.
But be prepared if the sound isnt much better through monitors....I really is the mains that count for your sound anyway. Plus in ears actually may sound better than you think too.
Good luck

 

[Gravedigger Dav]

Tech 21 SansAmp is a great choice at a reasonable price point. @JimmyM seems to be big on the Reddi, but it is pretty high dollar and I haven't used one, so I can say about that.
I had a similar situation a couple of years ago. It takes a bit of getting used to, but it does get a good mix and you do get to where you like not schlepping stuff.

 

[Honch]

I do recommend not to go below 15" though, even for onstage wedge monitors. Preferably some good FRFR speaker (flat response full range) but most are that anyway. Powered too, the power amps should reside in the speaker box, period. Not at the mixer. RCF NX-15 and the like....

These ones (although lightweight power amps):

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At a mere 1,870 USD each! ;-) Start with one, and save up a couple of years, and then buy the other one for the left channel! ;-) Mind you'll get the 1400w biamping as well!

 

[bdplaid]

Maybe it will lead to the extinction of the arrogantly loud lead guitarist

Yeah, if I hear one more time about "I need to get my tone," someone is going to get choked.

I played for years with no onstage amp, because I got sick of hearing about stage volume from the soundman. The upside was that he then had to carry around my stuff - a big floor monitor. And this was before the days of in-ears.

Lately, I've recorded using an amp head as a DI, with excellent results - a MarkBass F500, or a Fender Rumble 500. Sounded great, because I have some control over the tone via the amp's EQ, and in the case of the Fender, it has speaker emulation. I imagine it would sound awesome through in-ears.

If I could do it now, I would. The less equipment I move, the better, and the less sound onstage, the better. Especially a tone-freaky guitarist!

BTW - be careful with in-ears; they can lead to hearing loss if they're too loud. Do some research about it before you hurt yourself!

 

[mark beem]

You'll need a good DI and compressor pedal at least. Took only this to my last gig; Bass → tuner → compressor → Radial DI. No amp or cab. I was floored by the tone I got.

 

[logicman69]

If you have a decent monitor system this could actually work out well. My old band was all direct (V-Drums, Guitar through POD and DI'ed, bass through a Bass POD and DI'ed) and it worked out well for what we did. We ran a full QSC K-Series setup. K12's with K-Subs as mains, Mackie SRM450s as monitors. It was a fast and easy set up and I was able to dial in a good tone. We were not a loud band though so it worked.

The sound engineer has to be on-point though, and it complicates things when you are not running your own sound. In-Ears can be good, but you will spend just as much (if not more) on a good set of in-ears as you would on an amp (good ear buds can run up to $500-$700 for a custom set). It might be easier to just run an amp.