Band volume rant. We are our own worst enemy.

[micguy]

If the BL can't get him to bring his volume under control I may have to consider leaving the band.

A guitarist that can't control his volume wouldn't make me consider leaving a band. I'd just stop playing, talk about it, and if it didn't get fixed then and there, leave. I have no use for someone who can't respect that my hearing is valuable to me.

 

[Gravedigger Dav]

Any drummer playing acoustic drums on a local scene ought to use brushes( whatever they’re called) otherwise it’s a volume war. I think i just invented a phrase there- Volume Whore.

A good drummer can control his volume.

 

[mrcbass]

So, here I sit, looking for a decent band. I don't really care at this point about the genre (rock, blues, modern country, 90's country, etc.). I only care about the quality of the players. If the music's right on, I'm happy enough. I just don't want to do an acoustic duo/trio.

So if I join a band, where are we going to play? Why the lack of places to play?
There have been many threads discussing the decling band scene, but something that I think has contributed a great deal to the demise of the club scene is:

VOLUME.

The last five bands I've played with were always way too loud. All bands had decent PA support, including subs. The same thing happens all the time....the stage volume is excrutiating, so nobody can hear the vocal monitors, and yet everybody is in the main PA cranked up.
All the bands I've heard around here at the few venues that still have R&R/Country/Metal bands have all been simply too loud, to the point where you can't hear anything except a wall of noise.
Even the worship bands I've heard are all too loud. I hear complaints from all the people running sound in churches, and I hear the same complaint over and over; the stage volume is too loud.
I talked to a club owner a few weeks ago who was having problems with acoustic acts bveing too loud.
He actually told me some acts bring a PA that's too big. He can't be at every show. The people that work for him are telling him they aren't having success in getting the people to turn down.

From the mid 60's to the mid 70's, we used a decent vocal-only PA. Stage volume sometimes got out of hand (OK, most of the time), but since there wasn't the kind of PA support most bands have these days,
it just wasn't as bad. If you could hear the vocals, we figured we were doing something right.

It's getting to the point where most places are too small to run everything through FOH, but bands still do.
It simply sounds like crap.

VOLUME. I realize it's not the only reason the scene is shrinking, but people do not want to have their hair and scarf being blown backwards like the old Memorex commercial, if you're old enough to remember that. Good visual.

Now I need to find a band with decent players who don't play too loud.
It ain't happening, I'm afraid. That's the frustrating part. I'm starting to tell myself it isn't worth it for many reasons:
1. Talent pool is thin
2. No places to play
3. Idiosyncracies of band members
4. Lousy communication
5. Members' failure to learn material
6. etc. x 20

Rant over. Thanks.

We actually play 100% through FOH. We get lots of compliments on not being too loud and have actually had requests to turn up (drunk patrons who want to rock out). Both guitarists have very small amps on stage that don't get touched - I often have trouble hearing them at all. I think my floor wedge is the biggest issue we have right now for getting our stage sound dialed in - I'm exploring IEMs to get the monitor out of the mix. I really hopes this works out - I can get my load in down to one no cart load without the 40 lb wedge in tow and we are generally starved for stage floor space. An extra couple square feet on stage is quite valuable.

IEMs with a proper distribution amp really is the way to go - everybody gets what they want without bothering anybody else.

The talent/human side of your rant is just the way it is. You're dealing with people - at least somewhat artsy people and therefore probably somewhat eccentric people who all have their own goals and ideas of how to get there. Band = drama - no matter how good the hang is, there's always at least one ego to nurse.

 

[longfinger]

I agree with your basic sentiment, but a lot of people going out to clubs, bars don't think like us. I also suggest that sound quality and style is more at play than volume. Why? Because in many places DJ's are not quiet. They blast the place with Boom-shick and people of a certain demographic like it. Raves with DJ are not quiet. EDM "concerts" and parties are not quiet. I don't go to those places, but the people who do, do like that crushing volume. So the problem is not just volume.

For the current scenes of live music, I prefer high quality sound at a low volume. That's the scene where I'll be.

 

[lfmn16]

Some situations are unsalvageable, some just require an adult in the room. I've had good luck getting two bands to turn down. We had a harp player over to jam with my Rockabilly band and he said that one of the things he loves about jamming with us is that we keep a reasonable volume. One of my bands I have to remind at almost every rehearsal. They aren't ear-splitting, just louder than necessary. I did have one band where after multiple discussions about volume I just showed up with a small amp, set my volume and said, I'm not getting any louder than this. I didn't turn up and everyone played quieter.

 

[Chango Malo]

Buy a digital mixer like the Behringer XR18 or X32 -- it makes it really easy to run IEMs and individual monitor mixes. Start a band where the goal is to have as close to no stage volume as possible. That could mean electronic drums and digital guitar rigs like the Kemper Profiler or Avid. If the guitarists insist on amps & cabs, it's gotta be bedroom volume and mic'd into the PA. Volume's gotta come thru their IEMs, not their amps. It can be done. If you're up front about it when searching for band mates, you may find some people who have the same mindset that you do about volume.

It can be done to be sure. It ain't hard at all. The hard part is finding other musicians who think with the big head.
My current band (drums, bass acoustic guitars, electric guitar, tenor banjo, bouzouki, mandolin, fiddle) started off bringin amps for the electric instruments. After a while I wasn't happy with the smaller low wattage amp that's all the rage with guitar heros these days. Bass player was playing though a smaller amp DI'd into the board. I started bringing one or another of my old Fender heads, Usually the brownface bassman or tremolux. I'd stuff the cab backstage in an isobox. Bass was still DI'd from the back of the kickback. Band sounded good out front, volume issues were waaaaaaay reduced and monitors were easy peasy. Then we bought IEMs. And I looked at the fiddle player as she walked in the venue with a single case. Doggone it says me, you gotta sort this out. I figured that if I was using IEMs, there's no need to make three trips dragging cabs, instruments, and other detritus that guitar players "need". Then I saw Ritchie Kotzen do a fly-in gig. He had a red pedal and a wah on stage and a single cable that ran to the snake at the back of the stage. So we hung around after the show and I asked about his rig. A flyrig into the board. And the wah was powered through a stereo cable from the flyrig. Dude flew in with a carry-on and his guitar case. And he sounded great. I picked up the same flyrig pedal and stuffed it into my guitar case for next rehearsal. Walked into the studio for rehearsal and went direct. I haven't brought an amp to a gig since. Just a couple of guitars, mandolin, and bouzouki. One trip in. One trip out. A month later the bass player shows up with an ampeg scrambler di (i think that's the bunny) and plugs right into the board. No more amps on stage.

A guitarist that can't control his volume wouldn't make me consider leaving a band. I'd just stop playing, talk about it, and if it didn't get fixed then and there, leave. I have no use for someone who can't respect that my hearing is valuable to me.

had to add this one in:
That's a serious problem, and like micguy said needs to be fixed ASAP. It's not "can't control his volume", it's "won't control his volume".

 

[EdO.]

Anyone who doesn't understand that too much volume is hurting their saleability is simply unprofessional. Being unprofessional in any number of ways hurts your ability to sell the band, and amongst other pros hurts your ability to get into a top flight band and top flight (read "top paying") gigs. I simply don't have time for unprofessional behavior and don't put up with it. Both of my bands get it and staying booked at decent money isn't an issue. Go figure.

 

[Bunk McNulty]

A couple weeks ago we were playing at one of the joints on our circuit. Our sound guy was out, so we hired a guy from a band called "Streets" (name changed to protect the guilty) to take care of it. And he did a fine job. His band was playing the weekend after us, and our BL plugged his show several times during the evening. We were standing around chatting between sets, when our guitarist said "I gotta tell you something, but I can't say it here." We walked away to a far corner of the room. "This guy has been sitting to my right and talking to me all night. He said ours was the first band he'd seen here where you could hear every word the singer sang. That Streets was terrible because they were so loud you couldn't hear anything." I still sometimes wonder how it is that our stinky little bar band gets so much work, but the more I hear stories like this, the less I wonder.

 

[Kmonk]

A great band playing too loud will drive an audience out of a venue faster than an average band playing at an acceptable volume. There is no reason to be excessively loud. I have several friends who are great musicians and can no longer play due to permanent hearing damage. Both have hearing loss and tinnitus. One of them has been wearing hearing aids which cost over $6,000 since he was 40 years old. The cost is not covered by insurance and they have to be replace every couple of years.

 

[DavC]

running everything thru the FOH isn't the problem ... each channel has a Fader ..! plus the Master volume ..
just like every amp has volume control ...

just use a bit more common sense ... a little less ego , as in you don't need more Volume to get people's attention -
Talent gets their attention ..!

plus folks taking drink/food orders need to be able to hear ..! they bring in the funds that pays the band ..!

 

[JMacBass65]

I have a number of thoughts on this. First, I grew up in the 70s/80s, the arena rock era. I "like" volume when I see a band, I like volume when I play, and I have the hearing damage to prove it. Setting aside our experience as musicians, which tend to have us being more reasonable about volume, our ears/brains like it louder (within reason), there is (was?) a reason for "loudness" buttons on old school stereos, it was to make up for what the brain wasn't hearing if you were at low volume.

Having said all that, I completely agree that bands (including my own) limit themselves when they play too loud. The music scene isn't what it was when I was going to club shows, and running sound in clubs, in the late 80s early 90s. Those were still "mini concerts" if you will. I am speaking mostly of original music, in the college/alt rock scene. People weren't there to talk, it was all about the music, and volume was a part of it.

I think for many of us, where we are playing now, that doesn't apply. We are background music for people to enjoy while they socialize. I did a winery gig recently when're a friend made that observation. He said "people aren't really focusing on you guys much" and I said, "yeah, we are background music for most. That's ok, I'd still rather do this on a Friday night than most things." This particular band doesn't have a volume problem, btw.

In my opinion, it really does start with the drummer. Even a good, controlled drummer can only play so soft. I think most bar bands now should use electronic drums. Problem solved. I know my main band has done plenty of one nighters, where we don't get asked back, and it's our volume. My drummer (and guitar player too) just say "I like the way it feels and sounds, plus, its what we do". I'm odd man out.

Having said that, again, I like volume, within reason. I'd hate to be playing so quietly I can hear my strings cleaning off the fretboard, and, assuming electric drums, heard a steady "tapping on cardboard boxes" sound coming off the pads of the drummer. That would be uninspiring to say the least.

 

[Flashback Bass]

My band plays in smallish Bar & Grills and volume is only our number one concern. We play off the stage with only vocals in the PA. For the most part our drummer gets it and plays with 7A sticks. We play as loud as the acoustic drums. Sometimes even this is a challenge. One place we play the owner likes to sit at the end of the bar right in front of the band. If he can't turn and speak to the bartender without yelling we're too loud. Both guitarist are like F-them, this is Rock-n-Roll. I then remind them that they can play as loud as they want in their bedrooms but if they want to play out the owner has the final say. I keep an eye on how well people are able to converse at the tables in front of us. If they're spitting in each others ears to be heard we're too loud!

 

[43ManSquamish]

I saw Steven Wilson in December at the Variety Playhouse in Atlanta, and he was so loud his sound was distorted. The Variety is a small venue - it can hold 1100 max - but he played like it was a huge place. Even with hearing protection, I left before the encore. So it's not just the locals. Great show despite that, but still, way too loud.

My band practices in a small area and we're always loud there, which makes me wonder if we're too loud when we perform. I'm usually the one everyone else asks to turn up the volume during practice, and if I don't think the bass volume during a show is adequate, I'll use the DI. That doesn't happen much.

Most times when I hear live music from the locals, volume is okay. Towns around here are passing noise ordinances like crazy, and a few local venues have had to close due to the strict nature of the ordinances. I take that as an omen of the days ahead - bands need to have lower volume when they play, or there won't be any places to play.

 

[Shanebo]

Just played three dates last week/weekend at a theater venue, where my band was backing up a children's theater troupe who were performing a 50's rock and roll song/dance revue. 150-250 seats, or so--16 tunes.

Keys, drums, bass, guitar, trumpet, tenor sax--all live, no shielding, all our own amplification on stage, not in a pit.

At the tech rehearsal, the house sound guy was understandably freaked out, repeatedly asking us to make sure and play softly, that he had been running sound there for 15 years, that every live band totally overwhelmed the house, that the kids would sing quietly if we were too loud, that his vocal mic system would feedback horribly if we used any sort of monitor for us, etc...

He went so far as to rig up a little red light that would come on if we exceeded a certain volume threshold--wow!

Thankfully, this group of cats plays well at many different volume levels, so we just did the show as requested. No drama--the little light never came on! And at the end of the last show, the sound guy said that he had never seen this happen before.

The kids were fantastic, the groove was happening, and we got paid.

I'd suggest that always playing loudly, while fun, can be a crutch. Lower volumes leave less room for error.

All the best,

Shane

 

[buldog5151bass]

When we are setting up, I always speak with whoever is in charge. I tell them that we understand the volume issue, but that if we are too loud, just to throw something at me (in jest) - in other words, feel free to help us so the volume is right for the venue.

 

[SXema]

Most people don't know how to Eq. I hate loud bands, I walk out of the place when a band sounds like FFFSSSSSSSSSSS on a show.

 

[LBS-bass]

Any drummer playing acoustic drums on a local scene ought to use brushes( whatever they’re called) otherwise it’s a volume war. I think i just invented a phrase there- Volume Whore.

The drummer in my originals band almost always uses an electronic kit for this reason. The music we play isn't "brush" music and I always like to joke that he has lots of dynamic range but his quiet starts where most people's loud is. It's true, he's a big strong guy who can play anything, but his overall range is louder than most drummers on an acoustic kit. But he knows this, hence the e-drums.

I pretty much agree with everything the OP said, including the list at the end. Live music these days is a domain dominated by hobbyists who don't play enough to get good and tight as a band because they're busy making a living with their day jobs. Which is all well and good, but it has made the entire local music scene one big mess of mediocrity. There's always a volume war because everyone thinks they need to be the loudest thing on stage.

 

[yodedude2]

o.p., that ad was for maxell. memorex was the 'glass breaking' is it live or...? ad.

carry on.

 

[andrus108]

How about small places (100-150 capacity tops) with really cheap PA?

In my town there are only few places up-and-coming bands can play, they are small and have some really old, crappy PA gear. Yet there is this 'FOH' guy who wants to put microphones on everything and run it through those old speakers. In one of such places (unfortunately closed down) the mixing board was half the width of the patron area, so unless you stood right in front of the stage all you saw was that board and the back of the 'venue engineer'. I've noticed that if it's a completely new band, these guys will try to make them sound 'pro', and everything is then blurry and distorted, while whoever has played a few gigs usually seems to be able to turn down such 'service', and then you hear the instruments coming from their respective amps on stage, and only vocals and maybe selected items from a drum kit are going through house speakers; everything sounds fine then.

Just wanted to show the other side of the coin. Somehow, all the bands that gig such places know their stage volume, and it's the bar staff with live sound guy ambitions who make things worse....

 

[Marc valero]

I tell the guys in my band all the time- make them tell us to turn up, not the other way around.


I've never lost a gig for playing too quietly.

That is one of my sayings - nobody is going to leave if you are too quiet, but you will lose people if you are too loud. Thankfully my current band (classic rock and some country) keeps it under control. We lost our second guitar player a couple of months ago and we have been auditioning for a replacement, but I wish we would keep it as a 3 piece and vocalist, which would help keep the volume down.