Band volume rant. We are our own worst enemy.

[FugaziBomb]

It's getting to the point where most places are too small to run everything through FOH

Even in the smallest rooms, we still run guitar, bass and kick through the PA and adjust our stage volume accordingly. I like to put the guitar through the tops so the room gets a nice spread, same for the bass (which sits in the mix a lot like a rhythm guitar with OD and other effects). Even the kick drum gets run through the tops to send a little attack from the beater out to the crowd. Bass also gets sent to the sub along with the kick to ensure 80hz and down (mostly kick drum under 80hz) is present on the floor to get people moving. We sound good live, but that's because we work hard to control our volume, and we have some heavy tunes. People really don't dig loud music these days, though boosting the kick drum in the subs seems appreciated.

 

[mikewalker]

Gotta love some of this new technology

https://www.amazon.ca/Avedis-Zildjian-Company-LV468RH-Quiet/dp/B01N0HJLME

 

[mcarp555]

Back in the 80's, I was in a crappy little cover band, and we did a 5-nighter at a small bar out by the beach. The bar had a red light over it, which the barmaids could turn on or off. We were told that if the light comes on, the ladies behind the bar can't hear the drink orders, so turn down. If we don't turn down or if the light keeps coming on, we don't get paid.

The five nights we were there, it only came on once, for a few minutes. It really kept us in focus.

 

[mikewalker]

Back in the 80's, I was in a crappy little cover band, and we did a 5-nighter at a small bar out by the beach. The bar had a red light over it, which the barmaids could turn on or off. We were told that if the light comes on, the ladies behind the bar can't hear the drink orders, so turn down. If we don't turn down or if the light keeps coming on, we don't get paid.

The five nights we were there, it only came on once, for a few minutes. It really kept us in focus.

SPLENDID!! Those should be standard issue for every venue - and that red light needs to be a laser strobe that they can aim directly at the guitarist/drummer's head

 

[31HZ]

Even in the smallest rooms, we still run guitar, bass and kick through the PA and adjust our stage volume accordingly. I like to put the guitar through the tops so the room gets a nice spread, same for the bass (which sits in the mix a lot like a rhythm guitar with OD and other effects). Even the kick drum gets run through the tops to send a little attack from the beater out to the crowd. Bass also gets sent to the sub along with the kick to ensure 80hz and down (mostly kick drum under 80hz) is present on the floor to get people moving. We sound good live, but that's because we work hard to control our volume, and we have some heavy tunes. People really don't dig loud music these days, though boosting the kick drum in the subs seems appreciated.

The sound of the kick is really important, and I remember from running sound that in a small room (no subs) all I needed was a little snap around 2.5k to get it out there.

If I ran sound these days I think I would carry around a HPF pedal or two for the guitar players to clean up the mud -- it's the biggest reason, IMO, that the other instruments and vocals are hard to hear. FWIW, I would also cut below, say, 300-400hz on the vocals.

 

[Mugre]

Any drummer playing acoustic drums on a local scene ought to use brushes( whatever they’re called) otherwise it’s a volume war. I think i just invented a phrase there- Volume Whore.

Okay, I'm on board. Right after you agree to either play an Ashbory or a regular bass but you have to use a felt pick. Drums are instrumental descendants of instruments of war. They have heads tensioned to a high level and you hit them with sticks. Imagine that your bass has no volume control and and your amp has to stay on 8 or higher. Now, get told that you have to play either the Judas Priest "gallop" or Rocco Prestia 16's but holding back so much that the patrons still have to be able to talk. If you can't, they're going to stick a mover's blanket over your cab no matter what it does to the sound, play into a plexiglass wall or play some derivative of your main instrument like a guitarron with gut strings or a 'cello tuned to fourths instead of fifths. You would have a bloody fit. Just look at what happens when some of us are asked to go direct instead mic'ing the cab. MY sound, MY tone, I need to hear MYSELF.

This isn't a defense of volume wars nor is about the greater issue of stage volume. I don't expect much sympathy and I expect some grief in response but I'm just reminding some or you that you shouldn't ask of others what you wouldn't permit to have asked of yourself.

I've played 7 different instruments both rock and classical. While I was never accused of being a quiet drummer, let me say that in my last cover band, the real volume problem was the bass player. At a friends worship situation they were trying to use a "contemporary" worship band for a very non-comtemprary Baptist Congregation in an equally non-contemporary sanctuary. The worship leader put everyone on in ears, ampless rigs and bought a Roland e-drum set. ONLY the bass player refused to go along. He wouldn't give up his beloved SWR. Again not looking for WWIII but it's not always the drummer who's the problem.

respectfully intended for thoughtful consideration,

Mugre

 

[TinyE]

i was in a great band, but the guitar player played through 2 bassmans, and said he couldn't get his tone until he was above 3. We chased people out of places.

 

[Chango Malo]

Okay, I'm on board. Right after you agree to either play an Ashbory or a regular bass but you have to use a felt pick. Drums are instrumental descendants of instruments of war. They have heads tensioned to a high level and you hit them with sticks. Imagine that your bass has no volume control and and your amp has to stay on 8 or higher. Now, get told that you have to play either the Judas Priest "gallop" or Rocco Prestia 16's but holding back so much that the patrons still have to be able to talk. If you can't, they're going to stick a mover's blanket over your cab no matter what it does to the sound, play into a plexiglass wall or play some derivative of your main instrument like a guitarron with gut strings or a 'cello tuned to fourths instead of fifths. You would have a bloody fit. Just look at what happens when some of us are asked to go direct instead mic'ing the cab. MY sound, MY tone, I need to hear MYSELF.

This isn't a defense of volume wars nor is about the greater issue of stage volume. I don't expect much sympathy and I expect some grief in response but I'm just reminding some or you that you shouldn't ask of others what you wouldn't permit to have asked of yourself.

I've played 7 different instruments both rock and classical. While I was never accused of being a quiet drummer, let me say that in my last cover band, the real volume problem was the bass player. At a friends worship situation they were trying to use a "contemporary" worship band for a very non-comtemprary Baptist Congregation in an equally non-contemporary sanctuary. The worship leader put everyone on in ears, ampless rigs and bought a Roland e-drum set. ONLY the bass player refused to go along. He wouldn't give up his beloved SWR. Again not looking for WWIII but it's not always the drummer who's the problem.

respectfully intended for thoughtful consideration,

Mugre

so what would you recommend a drummer do for a small venue where volume is an issue?

 

[wizerd]

View attachment 3283430

Jim Marshall and Leo Fender, the philosophers that made us question everything...what?What? What?

 

[delta7fred]

TL;DR No drummer is better than a bad/loud one.

My band had this discussion 2 years ago. The drummer suggested that we started an acoustic side project, both the guitarist and I agreed. The idea was that I would play my EUB or DB, the guitarist his acoustic guitar and the drummer would use a snare and maybe a cymbal and brushes. We would use a small PA if needed.

The guitarist wasn't happy with his old acoustic guitar so bought a new one, I bought a new EUB, and the drummer looked for his brushes but couldn't find them so carried on playing with sticks. After a couple of rehearsals I took him some brushes and he miraculously found his! Me suspicious, never.

Even so he was still too loud and because he was always sat behind his kit would start off playing his snare but end up playing the full kit. To stop him doing this we switched from rehearsing at his house to the guitarist's. It was evident by the look on his face that he hated this, he even turned his brushes round and played with the handles to get more volume.

On the recording he completely overpowered the rest of us. (Acoustic guitar, uke, DB, and acoustic vocals.)

We had a gig in a couple of weeks and were making no headway at all with him so we tactfully suggested that if he wasn't enjoying it we had no objection to him bowing out. "I said I would play the gig and I will" was his response.

We had a couple of rehearsals without him and it was like a weight had been lifted off. Come the gig and we didn't tell him the details so he couldn't turn up.

The gig went well but we had to put the project on hold because gigs picked up with our main band then the guitarist was out of action for a few months while he underwent cancer treatment. I am hopeful that we will get back to playing sometime soon.

 

[jthisdell]

Told the young lady tending the outside bar to give me a sign if we got too loud. She was amazed! Nobody had EVER mentioned volume to her.

I also usually go up to a couple of the closer tables, especially any with kids, and ask them to let us know if we are too loud. People are really appreciative of this as they really are there to eat, drink, talk, etc.

 

[tekhedd]

Okay, I'm on board. Right after you agree to either play an Ashbory or a regular bass but you have to use a felt pick. [...]

Well stated, but off the point a bit. I played for several years with a drummer who used an electronic kit, it *still* had to be too loud, all the time, every gig. The problem of drum volume is a problem of unwillingness to play quietly, and deafness.

A drummer can choose heads and tune drums to be quieter. She can choose different sticks. She can use RODS. A really good drummer can even (get this) hit the drums slightly less hard. I've played with this drummer, they really do exist.

Yeah, brushes are not even remotely a solution, but there are others. The problem with drummers is drummers.

 

[Bill Whitehurst]

Ahhh, the eternal volume war.

While there may be several ways to deal with it,
The thing I found most useful was the realization that when you have a bar gig
you may think what you are selling is the entertainment,
but what you are really selling is booze.
THAT is how the bar make the money they pay you.
If they can't hear a drink order they loose a sale.
If the patrons can't stand the volume level and leave,
they loose the whole night's sales.
Hey, I enjoy playing loud as much as anyone, but if I
want to get paid for it, I try to understand that there has to be some compromise.

I once had a drummer that broke sticks, split cymbals and tore heads constantly.
He got replaced with an older cat that had both style and sense.
Now, we can play at a level that fits the saner drummer and still be loud enough
to be something more than you would have at home, yet not make the guy
buying a brewski have to shout at the bartender.

My hearing is still shot, but I don't have to duck the heads of drum sticks anymore.

 

[ThinCrappyTone]

So, here I sit, looking for a decent band. I don't really care at this point about the genre (rock, blues, modern country, 90's country, etc.). I only care about the quality of the players. If the music's right on, I'm happy enough. I just don't want to do an acoustic duo/trio.

So if I join a band, where are we going to play? Why the lack of places to play?
There have been many threads discussing the decling band scene, but something that I think has contributed a great deal to the demise of the club scene is:

VOLUME.

The last five bands I've played with were always way too loud. All bands had decent PA support, including subs. The same thing happens all the time....the stage volume is excrutiating, so nobody can hear the vocal monitors, and yet everybody is in the main PA cranked up.
All the bands I've heard around here at the few venues that still have R&R/Country/Metal bands have all been simply too loud, to the point where you can't hear anything except a wall of noise.
Even the worship bands I've heard are all too loud. I hear complaints from all the people running sound in churches, and I hear the same complaint over and over; the stage volume is too loud.
I talked to a club owner a few weeks ago who was having problems with acoustic acts bveing too loud.
He actually told me some acts bring a PA that's too big. He can't be at every show. The people that work for him are telling him they aren't having success in getting the people to turn down.

From the mid 60's to the mid 70's, we used a decent vocal-only PA. Stage volume sometimes got out of hand (OK, most of the time), but since there wasn't the kind of PA support most bands have these days,
it just wasn't as bad. If you could hear the vocals, we figured we were doing something right.

It's getting to the point where most places are too small to run everything through FOH, but bands still do.
It simply sounds like crap.

VOLUME. I realize it's not the only reason the scene is shrinking, but people do not want to have their hair and scarf being blown backwards like the old Memorex commercial, if you're old enough to remember that. Good visual.

Now I need to find a band with decent players who don't play too loud.
It ain't happening, I'm afraid. That's the frustrating part. I'm starting to tell myself it isn't worth it for many reasons:
1. Talent pool is thin
2. No places to play
3. Idiosyncracies of band members
4. Lousy communication
5. Members' failure to learn material
6. etc. x 20

Rant over. Thanks.

I feel your pain. The fact that I will have to deal with, without a doubt, somebody (probably the guitarist) playing unreasonably loud, destroying the mix, and being unwilling to compromise, is one of many reasons I avoid playing in bands now.

One of my best friends is a guitarist. Always wants to jam, record, etc, but is always way too loud. If we manage to get him to turn down, he pouts and says he can’t hear himself. Meanwhile, guitar is all we can hear. It’s a form of insanity.

 

[Slough Feg Bass]

this is why my surf band gets pretty good gigs!
we usually keep an eye on one particular person when we are playing, and when that person is trying to talk to someone, have a conversation, she has to be able to hear the other person as well as herself talking. That is my volume cue.

a while back we actually were told twice in one week to turn up the entire band because people wanted it louder! Of course we were willing to oblige, but yeah, playing softly is quite pleasing for most people.

 

[JohnnyChatter]

I think it comes with growing up as a musician. Bands I used to play in all cared about being heard and stars. Bands I play in now look at music and songs as a single unto we all need to contribute to. Instead of turning up because we want a special fill to be heard or solo we are constantly asking if we are to loud and set volumes. If we want something to stand out we have volume and gain pedals to slightly boost a signal. I’m more tired of playing venues that either don’t run us through the P.A. And ask us to turn up or have sound men that just look at us when we ask any favors or suggestions. We played a local show a few weeks ago at a pretty popular place and I asked when sound check was and the sound man just kinda was like uhhhh. We can play it by ear. We ended up not getting a sound check and had to ask true audience and my friend walked over and had to tell the dude to turn the p.a. up. After that all the other bands vocal p.a was fine.

 

[lfmn16]

so what would you recommend a drummer do for a small venue where volume is an issue?

Play soft enough so that volume isn't an issue.

Seriously though, We have a venue that is unreasonable about the volume. We don't play loud, but no matter how quietly we played, they still complained. It's a regular gig and they like us there so we had to figure out how to play more quietly. The drummer was the limiting factor so I just said, if we can't play quieter we're going to lose the gig, no ifs, ands, buts or excuses will be accepted by the club; what can you do? He now uses his electronic drum set at that club. It's much better that I let him figure out how to play quieter than if I had said, "You have to use your electronic set, or you have to use small sticks, or you have to use brushes."

It's the same with guitarists. I don't care if you play through a Marshall Stack or a 15 watt amp. If you're too loud, you need to figure out how to play quieter.

 

[pappabass]

Yeah, a lot of bands are too loud. Even outdoors. We went to a concert at a theatre in Pensacola, again, the band was too loud. Almost distorting. Don't get me wrong, I enjoy loud music. I think sometimes the sound guy has run so much sound he is hard of hearing.

 

[Ewo]

Granted, that guitarists who just gotta "get their sound" and drummers who have little stick control fuel the volume escalation, but...

My pet theory on runaway volume with bar bands is that whoever's doing the FOH sound starts with kick--and first makes the kick through the subs punch you in the chest. After that, everything gets laid on top of it--with the predictable result that the mix is way too loud for the room.

 

[Tommyc]

If it hadn't been for recordings, I'd have avoided live popular music like the plague. For me live music is only classical. Popular music, rock, pop, jazz, recordings.