Band volume rant. We are our own worst enemy.

[Ronzo]

And, yes, the drummer in my band tends to be too loud. I absolutely wear my 'plugs at rehearsal and gigs. I bought him a set of the Rods to use. He got the message, and is now actually trying to bring his level down.

Lucky you. I had a drummer in a band for awhile who refused to get that message. The guitarist bought a set of rods for him,and the drummer threw them at him, saying, “How DARE you tell me what to play with! If I told you to play with a BOTTLE CAP, WOULD YOU?!?”

A friend had warned me that this drummer was... ah... “difficult”. He was replaced before the next rehearsal. The drama was solved. The next drummer got it, was was a pleasure to work with.

 

[dtripoli]

We opened for a band that most people said had the best lead guitarist in the area.
After packing and locking up my gear, the girlfriend and I got a good table near the band and I was anxious to hear this frequently talked about excellent player. Opening for them was a feather in my cap and would get us closer to better gigs and venues.
This was a small club and when the band stepped on stage I had remembered seeing this guy pounding down glass after glass of whiskey during our set and thinking he was just a local hard drinking patron. It was the local "best" lead guitar guy.
They started their first song and the volume was so loud I put my ear plugs in. The girlfriend and I had to text each other in order to communicated because it was impossible to hear each other even inches away. My gal pal had no ear plugs and text me, "This is way too loud and is physically hurting my ears"
We left before the band even finished their first song. I removed the feather from my cap and couldn't understand how people were not leaving in droves. Maybe alcohol has an ear numbing effect. And most, if not all the crowd were non-musicians. They hear and process music completely different than a musicians do. I talked a few days later with their drummer. He said they practice at that volume. I asked why? He had no answer.

 

[jeffbrown]

Lucky you. I had a drummer in a band for awhile who refused to get that message. The guitarist bought a set of rods for him,and the drummer threw them at him, saying, “How DARE you tell me what to play with! If I told you to play with a BOTTLE CAP, WOULD YOU?!?”

A friend had warned me that this drummer was... ah... “difficult”. He was replaced before the next rehearsal. The drama was solved. The next drummer got it, was was a pleasure to work with.

We have been having the "volume discussion" for a while, and have tried different approaches, none of which really worked very well. The rods were almost a last resort. I had mentioned in a different thread that to make the point, I turned my Ampeg PF500/Ampeg 610 HLF up to about 5 in our rehearsal space (guitarist's furnished cellar), rattling the house. That began his conversion - my rig was pointed in his direction. The rods were actually a Christmas present, lol. We're getting there!

 

[Medford Bassman]

So, here I sit, looking for a decent band. I don't really care at this point about the genre (rock, blues, modern country, 90's country, etc.). I only care about the quality of the players. If the music's right on, I'm happy enough. I just don't want to do an acoustic duo/trio.

So if I join a band, where are we going to play? Why the lack of places to play?
There have been many threads discussing the decling band scene, but something that I think has contributed a great deal to the demise of the club scene is:

VOLUME.

The last five bands I've played with were always way too loud. All bands had decent PA support, including subs. The same thing happens all the time....the stage volume is excrutiating, so nobody can hear the vocal monitors, and yet everybody is in the main PA cranked up.
All the bands I've heard around here at the few venues that still have R&R/Country/Metal bands have all been simply too loud, to the point where you can't hear anything except a wall of noise.
Even the worship bands I've heard are all too loud. I hear complaints from all the people running sound in churches, and I hear the same complaint over and over; the stage volume is too loud.
I talked to a club owner a few weeks ago who was having problems with acoustic acts bveing too loud.
He actually told me some acts bring a PA that's too big. He can't be at every show. The people that work for him are telling him they aren't having success in getting the people to turn down.

From the mid 60's to the mid 70's, we used a decent vocal-only PA. Stage volume sometimes got out of hand (OK, most of the time), but since there wasn't the kind of PA support most bands have these days,
it just wasn't as bad. If you could hear the vocals, we figured we were doing something right.

It's getting to the point where most places are too small to run everything through FOH, but bands still do.
It simply sounds like crap.

VOLUME. I realize it's not the only reason the scene is shrinking, but people do not want to have their hair and scarf being blown backwards like the old Memorex commercial, if you're old enough to remember that. Good visual.

Now I need to find a band with decent players who don't play too loud.
It ain't happening, I'm afraid. That's the frustrating part. I'm starting to tell myself it isn't worth it for many reasons:
1. Talent pool is thin
2. No places to play
3. Idiosyncracies of band members
4. Lousy communication
5. Members' failure to learn material
6. etc. x 20

Rant over. Thanks.

You make very valid points. There's a fantasy out there that you can't get "your sound" unless it's at nuclear volume levels. I've known so many bands that have brought ridiculously large PA systems to fill a tavern or club that holds 150 people. The noise is so incredibly loud all notes blend into one tone where nobody can discern what song the band is playing. Again, it goes back to the "rock concert" fantasy many of us had when we were teens. Except in the real world the only place appropriate for rock concert levels is a stadium or arena. Not your local watering hole. It's kind of sad many musicians haven't figured out technology has changed that makes whole band sound easy to run, pleasing to the crowd and bar owners.
I see in many places i patronize or played at. Many owners simply don't want bands anymore because of ASCAP or BMI on them to pay user fees, bands can't bring in enough of a crowd to justify spending money on one. When a band is way too loud and can't control their sound, you're just putting a final nail into the live music coffin and bar owners eventually stop having live music. Why do you think DJs and karaoke machines became so popular at bars? Cheaper and easier for an owner to keep the volume down on the night's entertainment.

 

[QORC]

i was in a band where all of us went to in-ears. It sure helped a lot with "I can't hear myself/volume" problems

 

[EdO.]

i was in a band where all of us went to in-ears. It sure helped a lot with "I can't hear myself/volume" problems

Nailed it. If you're having stage volume issues this is the obvious solution.

 

[bumperbass]

Nailed it. If you're having stage volume issues this is the obvious solution.

That's hard to do around here. Nobody stays with one band for very long, so nobody wants to commit to the expense.
I certainly agree.

 

[Jay Corwin]

I'm guilty of dragging way too much fire power into gigs early on in my days. At least I got wiser as I got older. I run into a lot of rock cover band dinosaurs that never get it, or have lost enough hearing that have to play loud.

The worst is when places that serve dinner have cover bands firing up while people are trying to have a meal. Couple of years ago I took my mom out to a Mexican place we liked for dinner on a Friday night. They had live music there all the time, but we were there during obvious dinner hours. It was maybe 7 o'clock by the time we got the check. Anywhoo.......some cover band starts hauling in columns of speakers, setting up, and then sound checking like they are playing a GD hockey arena. Drummer started doing his John Bonham impression. We asked for boxes and the check, and never went back. They closed not long after.

 

[morgansterne]

May I suggest the unpopular idea of no guitarists. A better choice is a pianist. More music, less bombast. Need more? Add horns and singers. No more volume wars. Musicianship is first and foremost.

I stopped in at my favorite venue saturday and the band was a trio. When I walked in they were doing "silly love songs" with drums, bass, and keyboard. Tame volume with a small bose like sub + tower PA. Sounded great and they covered all the parts somehow without backing tracks. Really nice harmonies -- I think the bass player was singing harmonies AND using a harmonizer pedal on his backup vocals, which to my ears was a nice effect.

The keyboard player switched to guitar later, but the volume didn't go up.

 

[DougSkinner]

I realize a post like this might get me voted off the island, but I’ll continue the rant...

I read through a lot of threads on this board, and other boards, and see a lot of posts about gear. New guys will ask about lower power gear and almost seem to get laughed at. Replies like “that little 100 watt amp might do ok as a practice amp, but your drummer will probably drown you out,” “I’d never gig with anything smaller than my 800 watt amp,” etc. I seldom read advice that talks about good quality (not just expensive) reasonable gear rather than just bigger, louder, more watts, more horsepower, etc. I’m probably really dating myself here, (Kids these days...!) but it just seems to be the world we live in. Just my two cents worth, but you don’t need 30 horsepower to mow half an acre, and you really don’t need 800 watts to play the local soul food shack.

 

[delta7fred]

I still take quite a bit of fire power (GK MB800 into a fEARful 12/6 or 15/6 so 500W into 8 ohms) because we rarely have PA support so I need to be ready for anything. The only time it gets anywhere near cranked is outside.

I played a gig before Christmas where the guitarist switched his Boss Katana 100W amp onto the 0.5W setting, my master was just off the zero.

 

[EdO.]

Any guitar player using anything bigger than a 15 watt amp is overkilling it. Especially if the band is using IEM'S. If you need louder out front mic it and run it through the mains.

 

[buldog5151bass]

I realize a post like this might get me voted off the island, but I’ll continue the rant...

I read through a lot of threads on this board, and other boards, and see a lot of posts about gear. New guys will ask about lower power gear and almost seem to get laughed at. Replies like “that little 100 watt amp might do ok as a practice amp, but your drummer will probably drown you out,” “I’d never gig with anything smaller than my 800 watt amp,” etc. I seldom read advice that talks about good quality (not just expensive) reasonable gear rather than just bigger, louder, more watts, more horsepower, etc. I’m probably really dating myself here, (Kids these days...!) but it just seems to be the world we live in. Just my two cents worth, but you don’t need 30 horsepower to mow half an acre, and you really don’t need 800 watts to play the local soul food shack.

Even if you aren't playing really loud, I think a bassist should have at least a 200 watt amp, and 2 12s (unless you have one of those really expensive cabs). Better not to have to max your cab, for best tone and control. You can find used GK MB-200s here used for under $200.

 

[bassdude51]

I love going to clubs to see and hear bands that I like. But, I always have to shove rubber earplugs to keep from having my already damaged ears becoming more damaged.

And with earplugs shoved in deep and hard, the bands' music sounds like muffled crap.

I don't like to go to shows anymore. It's not fun.

 

[DougSkinner]

I realize a post like this might get me voted off the island, but I’ll continue the rant...

I wasn’t trying to slam anyone’s personal choice in gear. They all have volume controls, and I agree that they’ll sound better NOT maxed out. I’m really just commenting on the attitude that bigger must be better, and every new guy NEEDS x number of watts, etc. I figure if you’re on this thread, you’re likely NOT who I’m talking about. I might pick 100 watts, you might pick 200, and someone else might love using 800. We MIGHT all play the same volume in the same situation. Some venues call for a lot more volume than others. We seem to all agree that volume can be a big problem. Hopefully, we can give more advice to those who ask, that reflects what this thread is pointing out...

 

[EdO.]

Even if you aren't playing really loud, I think a bassist should have at least a 200 watt amp, and 2 12s (unless you have one of those really expensive cabs). Better not to have to max your cab, for best tone and control. You can find used GK MB-200s here used for under $200.

I respectfully disagree, you really don't even need a stage amp at all. I run direct, put the bass in my IEM's along with vocals etc. Works great, I control the volume and sounds coming into my ears to my liking on a tablet attached to my mic stand. Sounds good to me, sounds good out front , no volume wars to deal with and significantly reduced stage volume. Less stuff to haul around and have to set up/tear down .

 

[buldog5151bass]

I respectfully disagree, you really don't even need a stage amp at all. I run direct, put the bass in my IEM's along with vocals etc. Works great, I control the volume and sounds coming into my ears to my liking on a tablet attached to my mic stand. Sounds good to me, sounds good out front , no volume wars to deal with and significantly reduced stage volume. Less stuff to haul around and have to set up/tear down .

If you have that kind of a PA, of course. But the post I was addressing was talking about beginner players, and people coming from amp setups under 100 watts. These aren't people with that kind of setup.

 

[DougSkinner]

When I am primarily running through the house, and using IEMs, I have found a setup that works for me, and I like. I use my same amp, but with a home brew practice speaker, consisting of a ported passive sub-woofer that happens to have a frequency response that matches the bass guitar pretty well, and can handle about 30 watts. (I just keep it below that threshold) I run direct out from the amp to the house. That way I have just a little bit of me on the stage, and am running the same amp and sound that I’m used to. If a situation arises that calls for it, I can easily swap in my 2x15 cab. There is a wide range of opinion about how much, if any, volume is called for on stage when running through the house. I find that this works for ME in most situations where I find myself.

 

[lfmn16]

Electronic drums are great but I've found that asking drummers to use them goes over about as well as suggesting they use a condom.

I feel their pain, but that's why I make it their problem. We can only play at a certain volume. How they achieve that is up to them.

 

[Downunderwonder]

I respectfully disagree, you really don't even need a stage amp at all. I run direct, put the bass in my IEM's along with vocals etc. Works great, I control the volume and sounds coming into my ears to my liking on a tablet attached to my mic stand. Sounds good to me, sounds good out front , no volume wars to deal with and significantly reduced stage volume. Less stuff to haul around and have to set up/tear down .

When you mix and match with You and I, this is what happens.

I don't happen to play anywhere with an IEM system I could plug into if I even had the earbuds.

Your milage varies.

If there is no fancy PA the old standard of 250w and a couple of modest cabs to keep up with acoustic drums always works for me.

Your milage varies.