Band volume rant. We are our own worst enemy.

[John Patten]

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The lead player in one of the bands I’m in plays through a Marshall half-stack. During setup at one show, he was told to turn it down - repeatedly. He complained about losing his “tone” turning the volume down - the second guitar player showed him the amazing Master Volume knob. I thought hallelujah - we won’t have to practice at full volume now, either...
No.
I friggin hate Marshall amps...

 

[delta7fred]

I thought hallelujah - we won’t have to practice at full volume now, either...
No.

We had a stand in guitarist for a gig at a seniors Christmas party, he had his Boss Katana amp on the 0.5W setting (It goes up to 100W). Nice guy to work with.

 

[AlexBassMP]

I play in two metal bands...In one of them volume is moderate because there's only a guitar player and there's no need to play loud.. but in the other band volume is loud as hell.. the balance between guitar players rythm and solo tones is huge.. and everytime they play lead harmonies my bass gets lost. I bet that I could stop playing and nobody would notice.

I told them a few times that we need to fix this..but it seems that they don't want to move a single knob in order to keep their settings .. If I turn the volume up, in the rythm parts they complain that the bass is too loud.. I threatened them to keep turning up the volume if they don't want to turn their lead tone down.

 

[EdO.]

I play in two metal bands...In one of them volume is moderate because there's only a guitar player and there's no need to play loud.. but in the other band volume is loud as hell.. the balance between guitar players rythm and solo tones is huge.. and everytime they play lead harmonies my bass gets lost. I bet that I could stop playing and nobody would notice.

I told them a few times that we need to fix this..but it seems that they don't want to move a single knob in order to keep their settings .. If I turn the volume up, in the rythm parts they complain that the bass is too loud.. I threatened them to keep turning up the volume if they don't want to turn their lead tone down.

Sounds like a match made in Purgatory to me...

 

[Chango Malo]

I play in two metal bands...In one of them volume is moderate because there's only a guitar player and there's no need to play loud.. but in the other band volume is loud as hell.. the balance between guitar players rythm and solo tones is huge.. and everytime they play lead harmonies my bass gets lost. I bet that I could stop playing and nobody would notice.

I told them a few times that we need to fix this..but it seems that they don't want to move a single knob in order to keep their settings .. If I turn the volume up, in the rythm parts they complain that the bass is too loud.. I threatened them to keep turning up the volume if they don't want to turn their lead tone down.

guess they don't give a rat's behind that the disparate levels make it sound like poodoo out front. No bueno esse

 

[Ghook]

Volume is an issue. It revolves around a bands awareness of their "job" at a venue. It is understandable how things can get loud at a bar or beach club but a VFW , church or retirement community? Even a nice restaurant or coffee shop,where the act is solo ,suffers from unawareness syndrome. The patrons of most venues could care less if the live music showed up or not. When the music is too loud that people can't chat and socialize with friends they went to meet then they do care and it's not in a positive light. Perhaps the worst examples are the solo acts at dinner venues or intimate coffee shops. For reasons I will never understand their mission is to make you pay attention to the performance. Your evening revolves around them. It's no wonder that fewer and fewer "business" owners want live music. Patrons don't just complain to the band if things are too loud, they "will" say something to the owner or manager. So for those pros who are asked to turn it up at gig, live long and prosper . For those that don't , give it a shot at the next gig. Job 1 for a paying gig is to keep that paying gig. Where the music sits in the patrons evening "mix" goes a long way in being invited back.

 

[turf3]

Well, it seems to me that the solution is not in technology, but in playing softer.

However, it's irrelevant to me. All this drama about stage volume, FOH volume, "Can't hear myself" etc. is one of the big reasons why I don't do rock and roll any more. I have moved to kinds of music where this is less of an issue or not an issue at all. I mean, with musicians you're going to have drama anyway, but at least it'll be quiet drama.

Frankly I don't even want to go out to hear live music hardly any more, either, because as an audience member (with damaged hearing) loud music just isn't pleasant to me any more. The chance that I or my wife (who is more sensitive to loud sounds than I am, and who absolutely WILL NOT stay in a place that is uncomfortably loud for her) will be unhappy with excessive volume is SO HIGH that we just don't even bother. If 95% of the time you try to take in some live music you have to leave after ten minutes, why would you get dressed up, drive, pay, etc., etc., in the (mostly vain) hope that tonight will be one of the 5% experiences?

So, hey all of you who think the music has to be painfully loud to get "your precious sound" (none of whom are reading this thread, probably), you have permanently lost two customers. No one even knows how many more like us are out there not attending your performances, not buying your merchandise, not buying drinks at the establishments where you want to play.

I wish there were some way that this principle (sound level matters, and you're going to drive away your audience) could be taught to budding musicians the same way that things like "learn your major and minor scales and modes" or "hold the pick lightly between your thumb and index finger" are.

 

[StargazerMP]

This would get it done for most bands. The drum shield does two things.

1) It blocks some of the sound coming off the drums.

2) It reflects a lot of that sound back at the drummer. Usually this forces them to play a little softer because they are blowing their own ears out.

It's not their fault. Drums are naturally loud. A rock drummer with a very light touch sounds like crap to me.

But if you somewhat isolate the drums, the rest of us can take it down a notch.

Yes, it is their fault! I have played with drummers (once or twice) that were able to moderate their volume to the venue/situation and what a joy it is! Yes drums are by nature loud, but so are Marshall stacks and refrigerators..but it's not necessary that they HAVE to be

 

[jeffbrown]

Yes, it is their fault! I have played with drummers (once or twice) that were able to moderate their volume to the venue/situation and what a joy it is! Yes drums are by nature loud, but so are Marshall stacks and refrigerators..but it's not necessary that they HAVE to be

THIS.

Sure, drum shields. Why not, especially if the drummer has not the skill to play, er, ah, softer.

A rock drummer with a light touch sounds, to me, like a rock drummer, but softer.

If I played a large hall or stadium (yeah, THAT'LL be the day, LOL), I'd bring my Peavey 650w amp and my two Ampeg 610HLF cabs. That oughta be loud enough, I reckon, for the stage. The FOH can handle what the crowd hears....

But, I'd turn the stack down. It'll look bitchin', but it doesn't have to be deafening.

All it takes is skill, and self-control.

Play on....

 

[Gothic]

I play in two metal bands...In one of them volume is moderate because there's only a guitar player and there's no need to play loud.. but in the other band volume is loud as hell.. the balance between guitar players rythm and solo tones is huge.. and everytime they play lead harmonies my bass gets lost. I bet that I could stop playing and nobody would notice.

I told them a few times that we need to fix this..but it seems that they don't want to move a single knob in order to keep their settings .. If I turn the volume up, in the rythm parts they complain that the bass is too loud.. I threatened them to keep turning up the volume if they don't want to turn their lead tone down.

I repeatedly had the "mix/volumes" convo with my (now ex) band. One guitarist was ok volume wise but his tone drowned me out nonetheless. Other guitarist was way over the top. Shrill and LOUD. They both could just not comprehend the fact that you don't need a boatload of distortion to sound good and tight (it even is counterproductive, really!) and cranked the drive to eleven. Both were told repeatedly to EQ their stuff so I can be heard without having to turn up so loud - and even then I couldn't discern what notes I'm playing.

Guess what? They turned some knobs down for about 2 minutes, didn't like it because they "couldn't get -their- tone like that" and the war kept going. And it was just a garbled mess where everyone was fighting each other and nothing really "sat" well in that mix - if you can call that mess a mix!

Add to that the fact that the drummer was just bad, lacking both in technique and in dynamics control and the whole thing was just a farce. Drummer banging on the set like it owed him money, guitarists drowning me out in every possible way and me having to turn up just to barely -if that- keep up. And of course, me and the singer couldn't hear what we were singing most of the time.

I left that band.
Still, the volume issue is really widespread. A cool 95% of bands I'd been in had to turn down to sound decent. Most couldn't or wouldn't, despite being presented with logical arguments.

And by the way, all the above is just rehearsal studio volumes I'm talking about. It goes the same for most venues as well, but things are kinda different here. The venue provides the amps and PA, you just gotta... show up with your instrument and whatever pedals and stuff you have. Sure, some people bring their amps but it's not too common. Still, most venues provide quite large amps. On a recent gig, there were two Marshall FULL STACKS for the guitarists and a fridge for the bass. Absolutely unnecessary, considering most of the sound was going through the (extensive) PA. There were like six or seven monitors on stage and I still couldn't hear the bass or vocals well enough!

 

[mstillman]

...we lost most of our audience in a medium sized venue because the drummer absolutely refused to adjust how he played. In soundcheck, when we said something about it, he said, 'This is how I hit.' Vocalist and main man: 'All our audience are going to be standing at the back of the room if you do that and we have to turn up so much to accommodate.' Drummer: 'This is how I hit.' Result: We played to a sporadic audience with most of them plastered to the back wall and some of them having even left altogether to maybe just listen upstairs.

I searched this thread for a follow-up post but didn't find. Did you:
a) fire the drummer
b) leave the band (does the band still exist?)
c) convince drummer to stop pounding
d) use sound-deadening tech

Curious.

 

[51PRI]

...Perhaps the worst examples are the solo acts at dinner venues or intimate coffee shops. For reasons I will never understand their mission is to make you pay attention to the performance. Your evening revolves around them. It's no wonder that fewer and fewer "business" owners want live music....

I think having live music is an important element of an evening out, even if it doesn't seem that way on the surface. I went out last weekend to see, for the first time, my great nephew play. The crowd was sparse until he started playing (acoustic) but soon filled up. I was paying attention and it didn't seem that the crowd was paying any attention to him at all, but I think the music was the glue that held the evening together. Otherwise it would just have been a bunch of mini-parties of folks drinking. So, I like to think that music is still important.

 

[13bass]

We had a stand in guitarist for a gig at a seniors Christmas party, he had his Boss Katana amp on the 0.5W setting (It goes up to 100W). Nice guy to work with.

I have a katana 50 and I agree there’s nothing so easy as to adjust the volume depending on where you’re playing.
for me it’s .5 watts, 25 watts or 50 watts and at 50 it gets pretty damn loud!

 

[13bass]

I was just at a nice Irish pub/restaurant and the band consisted of a Cajun, a flute, and an acoustic guitar and the bartenders and waitstaff were complaining that everybody had to scream at each other to be heard.
The manager told the band either turn it down or pack up...they quickly turned it down

bands, no matter what the genre, need to learn that people still want to be able to have a conversation as they are actually out socializing not just sitting listening to the band.

 

[Mark McClelland]

I searched this thread for a follow-up post but didn't find. Did you:
a) fire the drummer
b) leave the band (does the band still exist?)
c) convince drummer to stop pounding
d) use sound-deadening tech

Curious.

Hey. Thanks for that. I never thought about that. Of all the options given above, the closest is that I do do believe the drummer moderated how he hit after seeing the results of what should have been a great show. If I remember rightly, one of the guitarists left because of this incident, deciding he couldn't work with the drummer again. And this guitarist had actually been starstruck in his first rehearsal with the drummer who had actually played in some semi famous Spanish metal bands and the guitarist happened to catch one of them live not long before the drummer joined us. We heard from quite a few sources that he was considered by many to be the best metal drummer in Spain.

This next bit goes way off topic - way way off topic so anyone please stop reading if you consider the question answered. But given that I left that last part of the story hanging until now, I thought it would be relevant to say how the band did end if it wasn't because of drummer issues.

The way it ended was that from Madrid, myself, the vocalist and the drummer, armed with our recently recorded album, mostly written by myself, all moved to Hamburg to try to make something of the band. Some guys from Liverpool had done something similar quite a few years before and it hadn't worked out too badly for them. Out remaining guitarist was all loved up in Madrid so decided not to come but we figured we could just pick up a guitarist in Germany. However, I have to take a lot of blame here as I went to Hamburg carrying a shoulder injury - a calcified something or other in one of the rotators which had seen me completely unable to play bass at times. I didn't realise quite how bad it was and was in denial that it would work itself out. It didn't. I went to Hamburg able to play, but once I started practicing quite a bit, it soon became clear I just wasn't going to make it as the pain kept flaring up worse and worse and shoulder movement became seriously restricted. I already had surgery scheduled in Madrid should I need it and it became pretty damn clear I was going to need it and also wasn't going to be recovering to play anytime soon. So I went back to Madrid to get that sorted out. The plan was that they'd get a bassist now as well as a guitarist and carry on with the plan. However, once I was gone, the vocalist decided he didn't want to keep going with a different bass player so he also returned to Madrid and the Hamburg adventure was over. The drummer stayed and, for a while at least, found himself in quite a decent band touring and appearing on TV shows and stuff. The vocalist opened his own restaurant in Madrid that became a Spain sensation then international chain. And I eventually moved to London to pursue being a pro bass player here. Done some stuff with that and now play with three acts signed to the same agent and performing all over London. On and off I play with a bunch other people too. At the busiest count, October this year, I had gigs in the book with six different acts.

 

[mstillman]

Wow. That's like a movie of the week. Glad your surgery went well and that you're busy.

 

[Mark McClelland]

Ha!! Thankyou very much for that. Love it. At the risk of hi-jacking this thread, my Diaries began when I said, dammit, I'm going for this pro bass thing and headed off to the Costa Blanca. When I got back from that incredible but ultimately unsuccessful adventure practically penniless - I had eight euros in my pocket and no job - the first thing I did was take Rick's (the vocalist) offer of a temporary job helping him refurb what became his first restaurant so I can say that I literally helped build the first part of the empire. His story and mine went on from there really and we're still both going on our respective paths and still very much in touch. Don't know anything about the drummer though who really is a great guy and one of the best people I've ever met at doing what they do.

 

[jeffbrown]

I was just at a nice Irish pub/restaurant and the band consisted of a Cajun, a flute, and an acoustic guitar and the bartenders and waitstaff were complaining that everybody had to scream at each other to be heard.
The manager told the band either turn it down or pack up...they quickly turned it down

bands, no matter what the genre, need to learn that people still want to be able to have a conversation as they are actually out socializing not just sitting listening to the band.

And, THIS, too!

I went to a bar/restaurant with some buddies not long ago. There were two folky ACOUSTIC guitar players (m&f) and their PA. They were LOUD! Seriously?!?! I mentioned it to the bartender, who just shrugged. We were at the other end of the bar and had to shout at each other. We had ONE drink and left, after telling the barkeep why we were leaving. The place was pretty empty as it was.

Bad for business.

 

[turf3]

And, THIS, too!

I went to a bar/restaurant with some buddies not long ago. There were two folky ACOUSTIC guitar players (m&f) and their PA. They were LOUD! Seriously?!?! I mentioned it to the bartender, who just shrugged. We were at the other end of the bar and had to shout at each other. We had ONE drink and left, after telling the barkeep why we were leaving. The place was pretty empty as it was.

Bad for business.

A lot of people have the idea that EVERYTHING must be amplified, even when there's no need. For two acoustic guitarists playing and singing I would use nothing more than a Fender Passport with two microphones for the singing (since most singer-guitarist types don't know how to sing from the diaphragm).

 

[jeffbrown]

A lot of people have the idea that EVERYTHING must be amplified, even when there's no need. For two acoustic guitarists playing and singing I would use nothing more than a Fender Passport with two microphones for the singing (since most singer-guitarist types don't know how to sing from the diaphragm).

Yup. Clueless....