Don't sweat it, as long as you stay away from banjo modes you'll be fine
Enjoy the benefits of a premium membership!
Upgrade Account
-
TalkBass has been independent since 1998. Add your voice.
Create a free account to reply to discussions, view embedded media, and browse with fewer display ads.
Join free Log in
Want zero display ads or expanded classifieds tools? Compare plans.
Bass modes vs. guitar modes
- Thread starter Greenman72
- Start date
No, that's a good way to look at it. And the patterns will get you there. Eventually though you'll find that in a playing situation your hand happens to be in a different place and you might want the same scale with a different starting finger or the root on a different string or any such deviation. Then it becomes important to be able to not just shift a pattern but to use a different fingering. The black/red diagram shows you more of those possibilities, but it expects you to adapt the fingering for what you find comfortable in the situation. You will know that the basic pentatonic box pattern exists in 5 versions, exactly to accommodate this variation (both on guitar and bass). It's the same with all modes. Your teacher has simply already given you the tools you will eventually need to take the next steps.
Modes only have relevance if the mode matches the tonal centre. E.g you can play D Dorian over a C major tonal harmony and all you be doing is souding like your in C major. Change the tonality to a drone D or a D minor chord, either on it's own, or shuffle laterally between Dm and Em for exanmple than D Dorian will be interesting due to the major 6th instead of the expected minor 6th.
And as mentioned by other poster, there is no difference between modes on a bass or a guitar. The patterns ( if you use 3nps for example) are the same on a 4 string bass in standard tuning as per the bottom 4 strings on a standard tuned git. No suprise there given 4ths tuning for those 4 strings
Learn the mode patterns by all means, and using different patterns for the same mode but remember, chord tones have preeminence in bass note choice heirarchy.
And as mentioned by other poster, there is no difference between modes on a bass or a guitar. The patterns ( if you use 3nps for example) are the same on a 4 string bass in standard tuning as per the bottom 4 strings on a standard tuned git. No suprise there given 4ths tuning for those 4 strings
Learn the mode patterns by all means, and using different patterns for the same mode but remember, chord tones have preeminence in bass note choice heirarchy.
Last edited:
^OK, that's where I get hazy.
If I'm playing in "D Dorian", I'm still playing the C scale, right? I didn't somehow magically switch to the key of D somehow, did I?
Why can't they just call it "Key of C, Mode 2" or something, so you know you're still in the key of C, just starting on the 2nd note? Or am I totally mixed up now?
If I'm playing in "D Dorian", I'm still playing the C scale, right? I didn't somehow magically switch to the key of D somehow, did I?
Why can't they just call it "Key of C, Mode 2" or something, so you know you're still in the key of C, just starting on the 2nd note? Or am I totally mixed up now?
I'd say it's a valid approach if you always know the name of the note you are currently playing (and ideally its position within the scale you are playing). If you get lazy and only play mechanical positions without knowing what note your are doing, you're developing bad habits. Fingering patterns can be a good tool, but it's easy to go off road into lazy foggy territory.
Harmonic Context matters when we try to best describe what the bass might be doing.
If you play a pattern using the notes C D E F G A B
under a droning C note , or C major chord, it will sound like a C major scale in that context
under a droning D note , or D minor chord, it will sound like a D dorian scale in that context
Scales don't happen in a vacuum
I agree with @mambo4 I've also been trying to decide whether or not to type what I'm about to type, but here goes. Feel free to disregard:
When I was a bass guitar player of rock and rock adjacent genres mastering the modes felt like drinking from the fountain of all knowledge. If only I could do that, I'd be an unstoppable monster.
As a jazz guy now...modes are really not that big of a deal and they aren't nearly as complicated as the above approaches make them out to be. I USE them all the time, every time I play, but just not the way that people think. I recognize those patterns, I play those patterns, but I don't think I could have ever learned this that way.
First of all is just understanding what the are notes native to the key you are in.
Second is accepting that playing those notes in sequence is possible regardless of which one you start on.
Third is understanding diatonic harmony, how chords are harmonized around the major scale. You can figure out (rather than memorize) what the right chord spelling is of any chord in that key based on the scale degree by starting on that degree and playing the scale up to the 3rd, 5th, and 7th notes from wherever you start.
Practice the scales up and down from each scale degree.
Play arpeggios from each degree as well.
It's good to know the mode names really only because people will say them and you want to know what they're talking about, paste them on your monitor, the wall of your practice space, or bathroom mirror in order and memorize them in order, without worrying about the patterns.
Guitar instruments are great because these patterns move and you can play patterns without understanding what's happening. They are bad for the same reason.
Piano players "C Major/A Minor? No sharps or flats" The C major scale is all of the natural notes from C to C (no black keys). Phrygian mode? That's the 3rd one, what's the 3rd note in C? E. Okay, E Phrygian is E to E, no sharps or flats. Locrian? That's a tough one? No, it's not. 7th mode, start on B and go to B, no sharps or flats.
What about the key of F? One flat (Bb). Do the same thing, it will be the same pattern unless you start higher up in a place that doesn't let you follow that pattern, but instead of B, you're going to play Bb and everything else is natural. It's way easier. It's not about memorizing, it's about understanding the music. When the pattern gets interrupted by the instrument, you're not lost, because you're playing music, not shapes.
This is the cycle of 4ths/5ths, which really does help to understand. You can paste that on the wall as a reference too.
This also helps you understand what modes AREN'T.
Blues is not built around "the" major scale and the chords in any variety of 12-bars blues are not diatonically harmonized around the root chord. (for example) Learning the modes isn't the panacea that I thought it was back in the beginning AND I realized why it seemed impossible, I was focused on memorizing patterns, not understanding the music.
When I was a bass guitar player of rock and rock adjacent genres mastering the modes felt like drinking from the fountain of all knowledge. If only I could do that, I'd be an unstoppable monster.
As a jazz guy now...modes are really not that big of a deal and they aren't nearly as complicated as the above approaches make them out to be. I USE them all the time, every time I play, but just not the way that people think. I recognize those patterns, I play those patterns, but I don't think I could have ever learned this that way.
First of all is just understanding what the are notes native to the key you are in.
Second is accepting that playing those notes in sequence is possible regardless of which one you start on.
Third is understanding diatonic harmony, how chords are harmonized around the major scale. You can figure out (rather than memorize) what the right chord spelling is of any chord in that key based on the scale degree by starting on that degree and playing the scale up to the 3rd, 5th, and 7th notes from wherever you start.
Practice the scales up and down from each scale degree.
Play arpeggios from each degree as well.
It's good to know the mode names really only because people will say them and you want to know what they're talking about, paste them on your monitor, the wall of your practice space, or bathroom mirror in order and memorize them in order, without worrying about the patterns.
Guitar instruments are great because these patterns move and you can play patterns without understanding what's happening. They are bad for the same reason.
Piano players "C Major/A Minor? No sharps or flats" The C major scale is all of the natural notes from C to C (no black keys). Phrygian mode? That's the 3rd one, what's the 3rd note in C? E. Okay, E Phrygian is E to E, no sharps or flats. Locrian? That's a tough one? No, it's not. 7th mode, start on B and go to B, no sharps or flats.
What about the key of F? One flat (Bb). Do the same thing, it will be the same pattern unless you start higher up in a place that doesn't let you follow that pattern, but instead of B, you're going to play Bb and everything else is natural. It's way easier. It's not about memorizing, it's about understanding the music. When the pattern gets interrupted by the instrument, you're not lost, because you're playing music, not shapes.
This is the cycle of 4ths/5ths, which really does help to understand. You can paste that on the wall as a reference too.
This also helps you understand what modes AREN'T.
Blues is not built around "the" major scale and the chords in any variety of 12-bars blues are not diatonically harmonized around the root chord. (for example) Learning the modes isn't the panacea that I thought it was back in the beginning AND I realized why it seemed impossible, I was focused on memorizing patterns, not understanding the music.
Last edited:
The top ones are playing more than an octave's worth of notes whereas the orange dots one is showing the entire octave and nothing more. The black dots with the red root are playing over 4 strings instead of just 3. Three is all that is needed for the octave.
If the harmony points to C major as the centre around which the tune revolves, playing D Dorian is just playing the C major scale. Except starting on D. If you want to come to grips with modes, you have to step away from a cadence that points to C, like V7-I. Instead you have to have an underlying harmonic structure that avoids progressions that set up resolutions to C. Just stay fixated on the single Dm chord for example and try some of the modes with a flattened 3rd over it. If you used D dorian, because there is no cadence pointing to C major, you could use any of the 7 x 3nps ( for example) patterns of C major over that Dm chord, although starting on D itself is extra reinforcement. And regardless of what note you start on, you should frequently play the F which tells the listener this is minor, and plug in the B, which titillates the ear because the listener is intrigued by the major 6th in a minor sound. Switch to playing D Phyrgian, for something exotic. As before, you could play any notes from the scale D phrygian is derived from, Bb Major. Once again, emphasize the F, to reinforce the minor sound, and introduce the Eb, the minor 2nd, which differentiates Phrygian from Dorian and Aeolian ( it shares it with Locrian, but Locrian is pretty out there with the b5). Same thing with the other modes. Pick the chord. Reinforce the major or minor quality and toss in the distinctictive interval that is associated with the mode.
Ionian/ Major/major 7th
Dorian/ Minor/ major 6th
Phrygian/Minor/b2nd
Lydian/Major/#4th
Myxolydian/Major/b7th
Aeolian/Minor/b6th
Locrian/Minor/b5th
No, you are playing a mode, or at least you should be, and you sure haven't changed key to D.
++++++++++
Only read on if you are a glutton for punishment!
++++++++++
An important point is keep in mind is that the 'ancestral' foundation of modes and modal music is not harmony but melody. They were the primary means of establishing and conveying the overall mood or feeling of music long before the concepts of Tonality (Maj/Min) and Functional Harmony, borne of Counterpoint, emerged and flourished in the Classical and Common Practice eras. Without harmony as we know it now, expressing a mood or feel had to be done with the melody, so the selection of scale and intervals around a central focus is paramount. These days we tend to assign a mode to a chord to the mode. But in and of themselves modes don't have any intrinsic harmonic function. In fact they don't need it. The burdens of tension and resolution all fall to the melody and it's relationship with the final* over time. A well-formed modal melody does not depend on any harmony/chords to fully state the flavour. In fact it can have a negative effect - if you are messing around with a D Dorian scale but your focus keeps going back to C, you aren't really creating any Dorian flavour. Likewise if you are trying to "do D Dorian" over a ii-V-I in C you will struggle to impose a Dorian flavour over that strong tonal background - as soon as the V-I happens all traces of Dorian colour will fade away.
Although modern usage commonly sets 'modes' against harmonic foundations, these foundations tend to be relatively static, say a two-chord vamp, compared to typical 'tonal' harmonic structures with chord progressions, voice leading, cadences, modulation etc.. The original traditions of having the melody create and resolve tension against the centre remain valid, be it a composed tune or an improvised solo. In that regard, put too much emphasis on harmonic movement and the modality of the melody can end up drowned in a sea of tonality.
* The modal equivalent of the Tonic (or key note) in tonal music.
Funny you should say that. The names we use today used to include a number but to add to your confusion, Dorian was Mode 1.
Yes, you're still in the key of C, but starting the scale on the 2nd scale degree (D, in this case), as you said. People's brains are all different, so they look at it differently, but you have it right. I approach modes the same way.
FYI - that was way more music theory than I ever wanted to read in my life.
Why can’t this be simple and easy to comprehend, like the Internal Revenue Code?
Why can’t this be simple and easy to comprehend, like the Internal Revenue Code?
The concepts are fairly simple, but there are two problems/difficulties. Firstly, trying to codify Art is like herding cats. Secondly, misinformation about this stuff outnumbers good information by about 100:1, so at least some solid knowledge helps in spotting and avoiding the bear-traps,
You said you’re working on G major. Okay, play the first example pattern starting on the 3rd fret of the E string and only play the first 8 notes.
Now play the second example starting on the same note. In both cases you will have played a one-octave G major scale (Ionian mode).
Repeat this exercise starting on the 10th fret of the A string. Yup; G Major, Ionian.
Neither example is wrong; they’re just two ways to finger the same exact notes. Which is easier to play? Well, the second example is easier with no other context but which is easier when you’re playing depends entirely upon what you’re playing before and after it. It’s okay not to know now where each example will be useful to you. Just learn them both and don’t worry too much about it. When you have more experience playing, you’ll choose which fingering works better in the moment and without thinking about it. It just comes with time.
Now play the second example starting on the same note. In both cases you will have played a one-octave G major scale (Ionian mode).
Repeat this exercise starting on the 10th fret of the A string. Yup; G Major, Ionian.
Neither example is wrong; they’re just two ways to finger the same exact notes. Which is easier to play? Well, the second example is easier with no other context but which is easier when you’re playing depends entirely upon what you’re playing before and after it. It’s okay not to know now where each example will be useful to you. Just learn them both and don’t worry too much about it. When you have more experience playing, you’ll choose which fingering works better in the moment and without thinking about it. It just comes with time.
If you're truly playing "in" D dorian, and not just playing a D dorian chord-scale over a Dm chord, that means that you're in a musical space where D is the tonal center, and there is no functional harmony in C major. By definition, you then are NOT in C major anymore. A key (or a mode-as-"key") is not just established by a set of pitches, it's the pitches in relation to a tonal center.
I can't help feeling that there's a lot of unnecessary hoo-haw around modes. It's worth keeping in mind that you can have a perfectly good explication of Western functional harmony without ever bringing in modes. At all. They're simply not needed, or even useful, for that. They are, however, useful for describing music that isn't precisely compliant with functional harmony, like some modal folk music, or jazz or rock that relies on modal vamps.
Maybe part of the problem is that we use "mode" to describe at least three different nonidentical things: (1) a kind of scale, divorced from any musical context; (2) a kind of key, which defines a kind of harmonic/melodic space in the same way that a conventional major or minor key does, though not functioning in quite the same way; and (3) a kind of chord-scale, which can be "spun out" from an individual chord in a chord sequence and is not necessarily defined by the larger key.
Something I always suggest to people curious about modes is specifically NOT to do the C ionian, D dorian, E phrygian, etc thing, but instead to spin out all the modes from the same starting pitch. Thus, C ionian, C dorian, C phrygian, etc. (Not necessarily in that order; you can make an argument for starting with lydian and adding a natural and more and more flats, but that's not really important.)
I can't help feeling that there's a lot of unnecessary hoo-haw around modes. It's worth keeping in mind that you can have a perfectly good explication of Western functional harmony without ever bringing in modes. At all. They're simply not needed, or even useful, for that. They are, however, useful for describing music that isn't precisely compliant with functional harmony, like some modal folk music, or jazz or rock that relies on modal vamps.
Maybe part of the problem is that we use "mode" to describe at least three different nonidentical things: (1) a kind of scale, divorced from any musical context; (2) a kind of key, which defines a kind of harmonic/melodic space in the same way that a conventional major or minor key does, though not functioning in quite the same way; and (3) a kind of chord-scale, which can be "spun out" from an individual chord in a chord sequence and is not necessarily defined by the larger key.
Something I always suggest to people curious about modes is specifically NOT to do the C ionian, D dorian, E phrygian, etc thing, but instead to spin out all the modes from the same starting pitch. Thus, C ionian, C dorian, C phrygian, etc. (Not necessarily in that order; you can make an argument for starting with lydian and adding a natural and more and more flats, but that's not really important.)
- Apr 1, 2000
- 17,398
- 9,830
- Disclosures
- Endorsing Artist: Roscoe Guitars, DR Strings, Aguilar Amplification
This.
I also try to point out that a mode isn't "X scale from Y to Y." D dorian is NOT a C scale from D to D - that's just how it's constructed. Much MUCH more helpful learning the modes as each relates to the major scale.
This point is important enough that I think it might be worth spelling out in more detail.
If you only think of the modes of a particular scale, say C major, you wind up with C Ionian, D Dorian, E Phrygian, etc. Instead, think of the modes in terms of a particular starting (root) note, and compare C Ionian with C Dorian, C Phrygian, etc. From this perspective, the seven modes can be thought of as a subset of all the 7-note scales you could possibly create within an octave (starting on a particular root). There are many other ways to create a 7-note scale starting on a particular root; these just happen to be the ones that are derivable from the (C) major scale. Each has an emotional feeling or "mood," and different ones sound good when played alongside different chords.
As @Pacm said, one way this approach is useful is in understanding how each mode relates to (differs from) the major scale. As @Richard Lindsey said, the modes can be ordered from this perspective in terms of mood or emotion they elicit -- i.e. from "brightest" to "darkest" sounding, or "happiest" to "saddest" sounding.
With these ideas in mind, and starting with the root note of C, you get (from bright/happy to dark/sad):
C Lydian: same as the C major scale, but with a sharped 4th.
C Ionian: same as the C major scale (no sharped or flatted notes).
C Mixolydian: same as the C major scale, but with a flatted 7th.
C Dorian: same as the C major scale, but with a flatted 7th and flatted 3rd.
C Aeolian: same as the C major scale, but with a flatted 7th, flatted 3rd, and flatted 6th.
C Phryrgian: same as the C major scale, but with a flatted 7th, flatted 3rd, flatted 6th, and flatted 2nd.
C Locrian: same as the C major scale, but with a flatted 7th, flatted 3rd, flatted 6th, flatted 2nd, and flatted 5th.
Note that the first three of these will generally sound the best over some kind of C major chord; the next three will sound best over some kind of C minor chord; and the last will sound best over some kind of C diminished chord. Details depend on what specific version of the chord is being used or implied. For example, C Mixolydian usually sounds best over a C7 chord, whereas C Lydian or C Ionian usually sounds best over a Cmaj7 chord, etc.
Hope this is helpful.
@Lobster - I like how you put that.
Ionian = "regular" major scale
Mixolydian - flatted 7
Dorian - flatted 7 and 3
Aeolian = flatted 7, 3, and 6
Phrygian = flatted 7, 3, 6, and 2
Locrian = flatted 7, 3, 6, 2, and 5
Lydian is different, with a sharped 4th.
Ionian = "regular" major scale
Mixolydian - flatted 7
Dorian - flatted 7 and 3
Aeolian = flatted 7, 3, and 6
Phrygian = flatted 7, 3, 6, and 2
Locrian = flatted 7, 3, 6, 2, and 5
Lydian is different, with a sharped 4th.
