Behind the beat playing question,

[brianrost]

NO ONE is going to like this answer:Example: The count (for everyone) on a 4/4 beat should be: 1 - and - 2 - and - 3 - and - 4 - and ...Learn to play on the "and"s

OMG, I hate this answer

That’s not “behind the beat” as the term is generally used.

 

[Dynacord]

OMG, I hate this answer

That’s not “behind the beat” as the term is generally used.

Guessing he means "playing on the offbeats/upbeats" (?) or just "playing on the 'ands'."

 

[OldSchoolFlats]

Guessing he means "playing on the offbeats/upbeats" (?) or just "playing on the 'ands'."

Arrrr....
...that be "syncopation" matey!

 

[Dynacord]

Arrrr....
...that be "syncopation" matey!

A lot more to syncopation than that - particularly the 'e's and 'a's

 

[OldSchoolFlats]

A lot more to syncopation than that - particularly the 'e's and 'a's

A'yep. I still struggle with 8th-note syncopation.

 

[Pacman]

How do you swing then?

Ask Ray Brown.

 

[brianrost]

That’s a fine line between syncopation and psychopation

Drummer Earl Palmer was once asked about this more elastic approach to time and responded “Not all quarter notes are the same length”.

As far as swing, I can dial up a swing beat on a drum machine and it doesn't swing at all…it’s way too stiff. That’s why it’s so hard to describe, but easy to feel it.

 

[KenD]

It was sometimes referred to as a "late 2-4", when the Muscle Shoals rhythm section famously did it. As far as I know, it is a feel or "swing" thing that cannot be notated.

 

[burgerdj]

Just let the kick drum dictate the tempo. If you feel like your playing is attempting to get other musicians to speed up, stop.

 

[Spectre Gunner]

Here's a short tutorial video by Chris Minh Dokey on how to "swing". He explains where you play within the beat to create that swing groove and feel.

 

[GreyBeard]

Years ago I went on tour with a drummer that played behind the beat. It was a most frustrating experience.

 

[dbsfgyd1]

Yep, and there's a ton of real estate in between the beats. I think some bassists think that "behind the beat" always means this rather extreme approach like Pino w D'Angelo, or their influence, J Dilla (a master), but it can also mean that playing just a micro smidge behind, not obvious at all, is what makes the groove come to life and feel soulful, funky, swing, et al--not rigid.

I don’t see aneed to be one way or the other on every note on any given piece. I think of each note as an individual creation and it placement is just part of the creative process and embellishment of the piece.

 

[stringthrough]

It's enough of a challenge to stay on top of the beat, so why introduce the concept of behind the beat? It's just making the drummer's job harder to maintain the overall beat and few if any in a typical audience will even notice that kind of playing.

 

[roccobass]

Its just playing with a lazier feel. If you think playing lazier notes and making them more legato than your usual, you will wind up behind the beat, or "fatbacking" in some circles.

There are many great drummers that play on the beat with a fatbacked snare that can be found in funk bands although two of the best (imo) on the beat/fatbacked snare drummers are found in rock: John Bonham of Zep and AC/DCs Phil Rudd

A word of caution: playing bass behind the beat only works with a drummer that plays on the beat (except the snare, which can optionally be fatbacked if the rest of the kit is on the beat). If you play with a drummer that "pushes" everything, the disparity between fatbacked bass and pushed drums will be too wide and you will be forced to play on the beat to anchor the drummer. On the other hand, if both bass player and drummer are both playing behind the beat, it creates drag

In jazz,
I usually play off what the drummer gives me. If he’s behind, I stay on and vice versa. I’m one of these guys that likes to variate between the two. If no drummer, then it’s a case by case situation. Some of my cohorts like it, some prefer I stay on. No bigs. I try to keep the groove either way.

 

[azureblue]

After the nice interview with Pino, posted here a few days ago, I wonder what is the best way to play behind the beat. Does anyone have some advice on this technique? For example, how do you count, what to pay attention to. Thx.

"behind the beat" usually means beat four, and "Ahead of the beat" usually means beat 2, 4 centered. Charlie Watts was a master at laying back behind rock songs, and he could stop Keith from running away because he knew how to keep perfect time, lay back and not get moved. I play in a jazz combo, and we do some Samba arrangements of "Latin" jazz tunes, so the beat is a bit pushed, But what I hate is going to, like, Neil Hefti's "Girl Talk" which is so far laid back, it's almost in a coma. So I have to pull beat four way the hell back, to make the song feel right. A bit jarring, and sometimes I don't pull it off, because I can't get the samba groove out of my head...

I well remember a lot of self flagellation from a little exercise: Set the metronome to 65BMP or under, and play a simple one note shuffle. Vary it as a 12 bar blues, but only play the tonics - IOW, one note per chord. Play it for 5 minutes. Way harder than you think it is.. When you can do that, then play beat 4 behind the click....

Sam and Dave's "Soothe Me" is way laid back shuffle. Listen to a lot of old soul songs, especially the slower ones and you will hear the drummer pulling beat four. That's how they get that fat feeling. But James Brown, on tunes like "Super Bad, the feel is locked in on every beat.

My advice is to collect songs with on, ahead, and behind, and play along with them until you get the groove just right. Then, - just for example's sake here - take the Soothe Me groove and apply it to another song with a shuffle. And take Soothe Me and play it dead center with a metronome, and listen to how the feel changes. I grew up playing this stuff, then in jazz bands that could really swing, and you really have to know how to do it. Note that jazz combos that know how to swing, count off on 2 and 4, which gives that feel. You just have to know the feel, and hear it in your head, before you play a note. It all boils down to that - feeling the groove before you play.

The hard part is finding a drummer who knows how to do it, too. If they don't, they will for sure, slow down when you lay back, and speed up when you get on top of the beat. In those situations, all you can do as a bass player, is to lock down the time and play centered.

 

[ACRock]

Don Chandler (aka Donstrumental) shows how Family Man Barrett (RIP) plays some notes on Positive Vibration that are intentionally "late." Dont know if this would count as playing "behind the beat" (or just playing on another beat) - but it creates a kind of drag or pulling back. He only does this on a couple bars - check out 12:12 of his tutorial How to Play Reggae Bass Like Aston Family Man Barrett

 

[pbass2]

"The hard part is finding a drummer who knows how to do it, too. If they don't, they will for sure, slow down when you lay back, and speed up when you get on top of the beat. In those situations, all you can do as a bass player, is to lock down the time and play centered.

Yeah, I mean any pro session or touring drummer should be able to do all of this stuff discussed here but sometimes....I subbed recently in a situation where the drummer (who I was told was this total muso - jazz cat, could also play a myriad of instruments, perfect pitch, read fly poop on paper, yadda yadda..) simply could not grasp this approach. We were matching recordings of greasy soul tunes where the bass was totally playing behind the beat in many instances. But every time I'd go there he'd slow down to try to match me. (I suggested he play to a click and he couldn't hang with that either--but that's a whole 'nuther problem...). I had to just play right on top the whole time 'cause apparently I was the one controlling the tempo, not the drummer. So, the soul suffered, to say the least.
I always suggest folks record some bass against a drum track in a DAW, and then play around with scooting the bass forwards or backwards teeny amounts and see what it does to the feel. Can really help some folks visualize it.

 

[Michael Stanley 2112]

OMG, I hate this answer

That’s not “behind the beat” as the term is generally used.

I'm sorry. I'll refrain from further response.

 

[Derek Kay]

My problem is swinging on a BG after swinging a DB. The latency of the DB note is greater and I anticipate it. Doesn't work the same on BG.

I also find it easier to keep consistent time on a DB or fretless than on a fretted. Intonation then becomes my main concern. Choose your weapon.

My solution is to use the metronome on the backbeat - that concentrates the mind rather a lot.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

We've all come home exhausted from holding up, or holding back, someone all evening. In a straight feel I have learnt to hold time with the length of the note. Bassists can dictate the time with the finish of note too. You can imply the time with a single note. The power of us bassists, saying it all with one note. Love it! Now repeat for the rest of the song. Ooops.

 

[BismarckHerring]

I found "Dilla Time" by Dan Charnas helpful in understanding what's going on with the behind the beat thing.

Excellent book. Here’s an interesting video on the topic, and how to approach Dilla’s feel with live musicians.