The drummer should not slow down or speed up because the bassist(or anyone) is laying back or pushing. That happens when the drummer isn't feeling the tempo and is only reacting. I wouldn't wanna play with a cat like that, personally.
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Behind the beat playing question,
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Its just playing with a lazier feel. If you think playing lazier notes and making them more legato than your usual, you will wind up behind the beat, or "fatbacking" in some circles.
There are many great drummers that play on the beat with a fatbacked snare that can be found in funk bands although two of the best (imo) on the beat/fatbacked snare drummers are found in rock: John Bonham of Zep and AC/DCs Phil Rudd
A word of caution: playing bass behind the beat only works with a drummer that plays on the beat (except the snare, which can optionally be fatbacked if the rest of the kit is on the beat). If you play with a drummer that "pushes" everything, the disparity between fatbacked bass and pushed drums will be too wide and you will be forced to play on the beat to anchor the drummer. On the other hand, if both bass player and drummer are both playing behind the beat, it creates drag
There are many great drummers that play on the beat with a fatbacked snare that can be found in funk bands although two of the best (imo) on the beat/fatbacked snare drummers are found in rock: John Bonham of Zep and AC/DCs Phil Rudd
A word of caution: playing bass behind the beat only works with a drummer that plays on the beat (except the snare, which can optionally be fatbacked if the rest of the kit is on the beat). If you play with a drummer that "pushes" everything, the disparity between fatbacked bass and pushed drums will be too wide and you will be forced to play on the beat to anchor the drummer. On the other hand, if both bass player and drummer are both playing behind the beat, it creates drag
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Also the bass notes don't have to be all equally behind the beat. Particularly, busier parts don't sound as good way back there. Snares on the backbeat are a good indication of how the drummer is feeling it. Ignore them at your peril.
Won't help you so much in one-drop, tho.
In my early days of playing bass I only thought of dragging or rushing. But then I fell in love with the blues where sometimes playing behind the beat is part of the genre. Thru the blues I hooked up with a drummer who taught me how to do both to really change up a song with out dragging or rushing.
Fast forward to now where I can help control the cadence of a song by pushing or pulling the beat. I currently play with a BL who is very picky about tempo. We play so much that we frequently find ourselves with fill in drummers. One in particular gets a bit upset about being told to slow down or speed up. I have learned to (seemingly) speed up or slow down the tempo just by where I place my note/finger plucks. In most cases no one knows...but I do.
Fast forward to now where I can help control the cadence of a song by pushing or pulling the beat. I currently play with a BL who is very picky about tempo. We play so much that we frequently find ourselves with fill in drummers. One in particular gets a bit upset about being told to slow down or speed up. I have learned to (seemingly) speed up or slow down the tempo just by where I place my note/finger plucks. In most cases no one knows...but I do.
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I think I get this, but also note the killer punch when kick and bass are perfectly in synch. That's a feeling that I can't let go...(apologies to Michael Connolly and the epsisodic "Bosch" series).
Good luck not being swayed by Christians McBride’s beat! The drummer in question is very, very good.
The point of the exercise was that the bass is the center of the beat. If you change that, the beat changes around it.
For me, it was always two things: A drummer dead on time, and whether or not some or all of the band would go with it, leaning ahead or leaning back against the drummer. If just one of us was fluid time-wise, but the rest of the band wasn't, it just sounded wrong, and you'd have to go with them. But then again, there are bands where everyone is in the groove, but each is at slightly different spots in time: Although you'd wear out several metronomes timing the Rolling Stones speeding up and slowing down, the interplay of Keith vs. Charlie with everyone else cueing off them is often both breathtaking and frustrating at the same time!
I'll unapologetically say it's a feel/ears thing, a whole world inside fractions of a beat that simply can't be written out or programmed in digital production.
I'll unapologetically say it's a feel/ears thing, a whole world inside fractions of a beat that simply can't be written out or programmed in digital production.
But.. But.. the drummer probably thinks he's pushing the beat. You think you're laying back. And an impartial audience (or the part that's not up dancing) could fill page after page in this very thread about where the click would be if someone bothered to turn it on.
I'll defer to Mr McBride. But I suspect that's good advice if the drummer is speeding up or slowing down. Someone has to take responsibility.
Well rather than talk about it, test your mettle and try these metronome torture tests.
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1. What genres are you familiar with? Quantized midi jazz files?
2. A bassist playing behind the beat the whole gig would be that they just drag and I would agree with your frustration but behind the beat in parts or even full songs as the feel requires, that is a different thing. There are places for push and pull of the beat and times for being on top of it.
3. Do you think no bassist has ever had to work/contend with your time being off?
4. Leave your dogs out of this, and everybody else's too.
5. Pet your dogs for me, I like most dogs.
6. Dogs tail wagging are different just like musicians swing and push/pull. They all aren't on top of the beat.
7. Wonder what breeds wag behind the beat the most?
We played "behind the beat" a lot back in the 80s. A lot of songs back then seemed to be written that way.
NO ONE is going to like this answer: A lot of it has to do with having a good drummer. I found if the drummer was able to play a half a beat before the one count or a half a beat before it, it makes it VERY easy to "play behind the beat"
Example: The count (for everyone) on a 4/4 beat should be: 1 - and - 2 - and - 3 - and - 4 - and ...
Learn to play on the "and"s
NO ONE is going to like this answer: A lot of it has to do with having a good drummer. I found if the drummer was able to play a half a beat before the one count or a half a beat before it, it makes it VERY easy to "play behind the beat"
Example: The count (for everyone) on a 4/4 beat should be: 1 - and - 2 - and - 3 - and - 4 - and ...
Learn to play on the "and"s
First step to being able to play this is way is being able to hear it and recognise it when it happens. The next step would be trying to emulate it. Record yourself and listen very closely or use DAW.
For this concept to work the drummer can't slow down which is a tendency. This is easier done by using metronome.
The other reason why reggae is perceived that way is because often the drummer will be playing a groove that implies swung eights but the eight notes that the bass player plays will be straight or at least not have the same amount of what in musicology is known as "swing ratio". Here's an example of that feel:
I interviewed 3 renowned jazz musicians as a part of my bachelor thesis. One of them, a double bass player who plays with with the likes of WDR Big Band and Joey DeFrancesco was of the opinion that for the music to swing (when playing jazz music) the bass should be playing in front slightly, especially if it's a double bass since the attack of the double bass is slower than that of the electric bass.
Another very undervalued aspect is the actual length of the notes. Let's say that you're playing a walking bass line and all of your notes are 100% on the money each time every time. If the length of the note is inconsistent, the bass line is not going to swing.
People often have decent timing but lousy technique so position change or string skipping might cause inconsistency in note length.
For this concept to work the drummer can't slow down which is a tendency. This is easier done by using metronome.
I often see Aston Barrett (and reggae in general) mentioned as an example of playing behind the beat but I think that this is a misconception that people have because they perceive reggae as chill / laid back music. Aston Barrett tends to play on the beat in my opinion and other famous reggae bassists do as well.
The other reason why reggae is perceived that way is because often the drummer will be playing a groove that implies swung eights but the eight notes that the bass player plays will be straight or at least not have the same amount of what in musicology is known as "swing ratio". Here's an example of that feel:
Great question! This has been a topic of many scientific researches. There are many studies where micro-timing (playing behind / in front of the bit is a part of that big topic) was researched any there are no clear answers. There are some studies that suggest that listeners perception of "swing" or "groove" was lower when micro-timing deviations were introduced. Meaning that they thought the music didn't swing when musicians played behind or in front.
I interviewed 3 renowned jazz musicians as a part of my bachelor thesis. One of them, a double bass player who plays with with the likes of WDR Big Band and Joey DeFrancesco was of the opinion that for the music to swing (when playing jazz music) the bass should be playing in front slightly, especially if it's a double bass since the attack of the double bass is slower than that of the electric bass.
Another very undervalued aspect is the actual length of the notes. Let's say that you're playing a walking bass line and all of your notes are 100% on the money each time every time. If the length of the note is inconsistent, the bass line is not going to swing.
People often have decent timing but lousy technique so position change or string skipping might cause inconsistency in note length.
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This post is awesome! I feel like it's Right on the beat!!
As a bassist, I couldn’t agree with you more. I really have to work hard when I play with a drummer that plays “behind the beat”, no matter the genre.
I play bass 1x per month with a ukulele club band. The members are at different levels on their instruments- that’s no problem.
When none of them picks up a tambourine, I cringe. It often drags and is on 1 & 3, when the song should be swinging.
Well, a lot of drummers in soul/r&b. Al Jackson with Stax, Howard Grimes with Al Green. Many other examples where it works. Zigaboo... I also think of Papa's Got a Brand New Bag where everything seems pretty elastic but hits the 'one' dead on. What I think of with "fatback" drumming is the drummer plays in time but slightly delays the backbeat snare hits. I love drummers who can do it.
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I think it is important to distinguish tempo from where you come down on the beat. Playing the wrong tempo is never good.
I was always an "on the beat" player, but learned years later to attack each note ever so slightly behind the beat for some songs. Not a tempo change, a slight phase change. It does for time what two slightly out-of-tune oscillators on an analog synth do for pitch: "fattens".
...but ahead of the beat? No way! Never liked that stressed-out vibe from Sting of The Police. Still, The Police and Sting were quite popular.
I was always an "on the beat" player, but learned years later to attack each note ever so slightly behind the beat for some songs. Not a tempo change, a slight phase change. It does for time what two slightly out-of-tune oscillators on an analog synth do for pitch: "fattens".
...but ahead of the beat? No way! Never liked that stressed-out vibe from Sting of The Police. Still, The Police and Sting were quite popular.
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Ed F. Really articulated how you cut off a note in time matters a lot to the feel. As he said “where you put the rest”. I see lots of newer bass players REALLY miss this.
understandings and definitions seems to vary by experience and genre. (see also groove, feel, pocket, funk )
as I said in my original post: not a technical term, but informal musicians jargon.
I think the variety of opinions about how to play 'behind the beat'
Clearly indicates a lack of consensus about exactly what 'behind the beat' means.
Most will agree that "relaxed feel" is the result
but what to do and how to get there seems to vary personally.
It is enlightening to see everyone's thoughts though
add them up an divide by your own circumstance I guess.
as I said in my original post: not a technical term, but informal musicians jargon.
I think the variety of opinions about how to play 'behind the beat'
Clearly indicates a lack of consensus about exactly what 'behind the beat' means.
Most will agree that "relaxed feel" is the result
but what to do and how to get there seems to vary personally.
It is enlightening to see everyone's thoughts though
add them up an divide by your own circumstance I guess.
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Exactly. It's an intentional contrast - not just dragging.
Pretty good overview here:
yes on this! Kinda Like a slower version of “sitting on the dock of the bay” (sorry, I live in a bay/ocean area). It has a couple of off beat words at the end of the phrase, hit bass note on the down beat. Gives it a little character. Get the drummer to watch. Just an example. No need to roast the reply.
