I pretty much play on the beat with an ever so slight push. The only times I remember purposely playing behind the beat was some classic country ballads a long time ago.....the songs are generally about being drunk and losing a wife so I played like I was head down in a beer
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Behind the beat playing question,
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This is a concept that I have trouble hearing in most of the video examples.
Most descriptions are a nebulous "feel"
Are they talking about the attack or the decay?
Staccato or legato?
If someone were to say"Lay back on the beat"That means noting to me.
That's nebulous.
If they were to say "I want you behind the beat a sixteenth"
Then THAT is not nebulous.
That's a definite measurement.
But most don't use note values as descriptions.
Most descriptions are a nebulous "feel"
Are they talking about the attack or the decay?
Staccato or legato?
If someone were to say"Lay back on the beat"That means noting to me.
That's nebulous.
If they were to say "I want you behind the beat a sixteenth"
Then THAT is not nebulous.
That's a definite measurement.
But most don't use note values as descriptions.
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Great find! To my ears he is matching the drums which as you say can either be interpret as making a 16th note rest or playing behind the beat.
But to me this differs from what I think most musicians understand as playing behind & on the top of the beat (which is to place notes so that all of the notes are consistently distanced from the beat). Barrett almost uses this like a drummer would use a fill. He uses it now and then to insert some colour or to mark an end of a part or the beginning of a new part but that aside from that his playing is mostly on the beat (to my ears at lest).
This is cool. They make a good point about the DAW as well. I feel like seeing it in the DAW and then listening back to it can help a lot with your awareness of what it sounds like when you're slightly ahead or behind.
I think it’s more a feel thing. If you consciously try to play ahead or behind you just end up rushing or dragging.
Jazzdogg
Less barking, more wagging!
One of the best videos in Scott’s entire series. Another, equally valuable articulation of what a couple of folks mentioned earlier - whether the kick is thought of as trigger, consonant before vowel, or transient.
But a component of music that swings can often be an instrument(s) playing behind the beat at times. Along with the other things that go into making a feel that has "swing".
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Sometimes it's just a micro shift--but I suppose you could say "play behind the beat by 128th"
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It's not a groove either. It's another note altogether. To get those feels, the notes are offset in divisions too small to count. Hence the nebulous descriptions.
Having done a bit of midi drum programming I discovered that the 16th notes before and after the beat have quite a bit of space around where they fall to create very different feels. There is also some degree of room to move to get a tight fist-in-glove sort of bass/bass drum thump depending on the drum attack. Those tiny variations bring a whole lot of flavour to the groove. As I’ve said many times and will many times more, it’s not the notes themselves but the space between the notes in time and pitch that make music interesting. That’s where the creative choices are made.
Ain't that the truth! Notation? It's an amazing system that conveys a lot of info, but the map is not the territory...
"Swing" is contextual, and wondering if we need better words to express what folks are trying to say. In traditional usage, "swing" was seeing a chart with straight 8th notes, and knowing to shift to dotted eighth/sixteenth pulsing (hokey), or to a triplet feel across each quarter note value - which is deeply rooted in African and Afro-American traditions (and...wait for it... Scottish parade drumming!) that play 3 against 2. Thinking that ahead/middle/behind the beat is a whole 'nother thing, which could apply to all of the above. Maybe the issue is the word "swing," which perhaps gets used in a different way than back in the day. If "swing" is code for what loosens your inhibitions, feet, and hips, then the ahead/middle/behind analysis is spot-on. But ahead/middle/behind is a mode of analysis that could apply to straight notation, straight notation interpreted by skilled players, to folks playing together with open ears and hearts, or a parade of feral pigs crossing the road in front of your vehicle.
Such great info in this thread. I thought I would post a related link around shifting and juxtaposing feels that I recently found extremely instructive (and humorous, if you dig into some of the embedded soundfile examples toward the middle.) I've been playing Cissy Strut on guitar for years, and had just shedded the bass part. This article highlights part of what makes that groove so infectious.
Microtiming: Degrees of Swing, Reverse Swing, and Compound Swing. – Jack Ashley
Microtiming: Degrees of Swing, Reverse Swing, and Compound Swing. – Jack Ashley
Just eyeballed the link, which looks great. Looking forward to the Cissy Strut analysis. Thanks!
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A lot of times, when I'm playing behind the beat I still attack the note on the beat, but I delay the release so that pops slightly behind. I put a bit more flesh into it and drag the attack out. IMO, this technique keeps the note duration on time so it isn't sustaining over top of the next beat (and thus avoiding sounding like you're behind the tempo). It's not the only way I go about it, but the OP was asking for advice techniques, so that's one that I use.
I think the reason there's no definitive answer for this is because there's a bunch of different ways to skin this cat, and there's even more ways to play with the groove, from the subtle to the extreme.
When I think of this subject I usually think of the Stones Honkey Tonk Women. When I first learned it I played it straight and it sounded terrible. I had to learn how to play that song like I was drunk to get the right feel.
I think the reason there's no definitive answer for this is because there's a bunch of different ways to skin this cat, and there's even more ways to play with the groove, from the subtle to the extreme.
When I think of this subject I usually think of the Stones Honkey Tonk Women. When I first learned it I played it straight and it sounded terrible. I had to learn how to play that song like I was drunk to get the right feel.
Playing behind does require a drummer who can maintain the time and doesn't follow the bassist. For me, the tighter I am with the drummer the more room there is for both of us to play with the beat. It's part of the process of feeling each other out.
