After the nice interview with Pino, posted here a few days ago, I wonder what is the best way to play behind the beat. Does anyone have some advice on this technique? For example, how do you count, what to pay attention to. Thx.
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Behind the beat playing question,
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A frequent question. Not a technical music theory term, it's informal musician jargon
I hate "it's s feel thing" answers but after years of seeing discussions about it, my best answer is :
"ahead of the beat" = feels rushed but isn't
"behind the beat " = feels dragged but isn't
From a previous thread:
Here's the John Paul Jones explanation referenced:
Another response on the subject
I hate "it's s feel thing" answers but after years of seeing discussions about it, my best answer is :
"ahead of the beat" = feels rushed but isn't
"behind the beat " = feels dragged but isn't
From a previous thread:
Here's the John Paul Jones explanation referenced:
Another response on the subject
Last edited:
As a jazz pianist, I can unequivocally state that there is nothing I hate more, or even close to as much, as I hate a bassist who has been taught to "lay back" or play behind the beat. I come home from gigs with bass players that do that ready to do to terrible things to my dog with a fork, and I LOVE my dogs. My entire back aches, my shoulders are sore, and I feel like I've been dragging an anchor through quicksand for four hours.
NEVER play behind the beat as a bassist, drummer, or other member of the rhythm section, unless you happen to currently be soloing and backphrasing a melody. At least, not in the genres I'm familiar with.
NEVER play behind the beat as a bassist, drummer, or other member of the rhythm section, unless you happen to currently be soloing and backphrasing a melody. At least, not in the genres I'm familiar with.
I think it’s situational too. Try learning some of the tacks off of Voodoo by d
D’Angelo and it should become apparent. cranes in the sky by solange is another good example.
From Rufus Reid, if you want to master time to that level, sit down with a metronome. Clap on beat. Make the click disappear. If you are clapping exactly on the beat your clap will cover the click. When you can do that consistently and at will you will begin to understand that an entire world exists within the space of that clap or click. I like to think of it in terms of pro-tools, you begin to “zoom in” on that click. Once you become aware of exactly where the click is and how much space it takes, you can begin to place your clap in the beginning of that space or closer to the end making it feel like it’s pushing or pulling, or alternating for a swinging feel. That’s how you master time. One way at least. It’s gonna take a long time alone with a click. Have fun.
One little mental trick I did when I was learning how to do this - totally unscientific - sometimes is try and get into a headspace where I'm playing as if the kick or other drums are triggering my bass notes. Sounds weird IK, but try it some time. Depends on the specific bass part/drum part of course but it can help you find that behind the beat pocket if you're not relaxing enough already to get there. Because essentially, you're not playing until the drum triggers you, so you're gonna be a smidge behind).
Learning how to play behind, or a little in front, around the beat in any way is key for so many styles of music to get the feel right. And much of the time, that's where the soul is. Go listen to some Family Man (RIP) with Bob Marley and The Wailers for a course in how to have total control of the groove by placing your notes artfully and soulfully "around" the beat.
Learning how to play behind, or a little in front, around the beat in any way is key for so many styles of music to get the feel right. And much of the time, that's where the soul is. Go listen to some Family Man (RIP) with Bob Marley and The Wailers for a course in how to have total control of the groove by placing your notes artfully and soulfully "around" the beat.
How do you swing then?
My first life was as a commercial trombonist, with a lot of salsa and latin jazz. It's like I'm hard-wired to push the beat, although as time goes on I"m getting more control over in the middle or a bit behind. Recently listened to a recording of Janos Starker playing the first Bach cello suite, and was blown away by his ability to shade time, in all directions as he might choose for expressive purposes, without doing violence to the pulse. It's a big world, out there.
Yep, and there's a ton of real estate in between the beats. I think some bassists think that "behind the beat" always means this rather extreme approach like Pino w D'Angelo, or their influence, J Dilla (a master), but it can also mean that playing just a micro smidge behind, not obvious at all, is what makes the groove come to life and feel soulful, funky, swing, et al--not rigid.
Best advice I’ve heard on this is to slow your breathing and relax your muscles. I don’t actually think of it as playing “behind the beat,” I think of it as playing relaxed, but the effect is similar.
Sometimes playing behind the beat isn't that but sounds like that because of the context around the playing. E.g., Pino leaves a ton of space around his notes, and if Chris Dave or Quest are doing the Dilla thing, Pino will sound like he's a bit behind. Sometimes he'd come in on the a of 4 with the major sixth sliding up to a minor seventh and play nothing else until the third beat comes around. Because he'd accent the three and not the two or four, where the other rhythmic instruments are emphasizing their notes, it sounds like he's behind the beat.
Family Man (crushed by his loss), as others mentioned above, is an absolute master on where to put his notes and what spaces to leave wide open. More often than not, it was the obvious spots, like the one, that were rests.
Reggae has a wealth of brilliant bass players that excel at this, and most of not all, we're disciples of Family Man: Boris Gardener, Flabba Holt to name two. A crucial genre and style that can be applied to anyone learning bass and to any other genre.
Family Man (crushed by his loss), as others mentioned above, is an absolute master on where to put his notes and what spaces to leave wide open. More often than not, it was the obvious spots, like the one, that were rests.
Reggae has a wealth of brilliant bass players that excel at this, and most of not all, we're disciples of Family Man: Boris Gardener, Flabba Holt to name two. A crucial genre and style that can be applied to anyone learning bass and to any other genre.
For bassists I think you are mostly going to want to play on the front of the beat. "Laying Back" for me means swinging harder, like dragging the offbeats, but still staying on the front side of the beat. When you are really tight with a drummer, you can get away with more dramatic shifts in feel, but that is a rare kind of magic.
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What a great way to think about this, nailed it. I try to think of the kick drum's transient as a hard consonant at the beginning of a word, and my note as the vowel that follows. The trick is that you can't actually wait for the kick, you and the drummer need to be locked-in enough that you can start to play your note KNOWING where the kick is about to be.
I think you are probably correct, and the end effect is precisely the same.
The term is misleading imho
I found "Dilla Time" by Dan Charnas helpful in understanding what's going on with the behind the beat thing.
It’s a feel thing and a give and take between the drums bass and the other instruments. Someone had to stay ‘on the beat’ though…so who’s that gonna be lol!
One of the drummers limbs has to stay straight for it to work, either kick, snare, or hat.
Unless everyone is at that level of groove mastery where that metronomic straight beat isn't actually being played by anyone, but it's the subconscious guide. Just like playing to a click--doesn't mean someone has to be hitting that, as long as everyone is vibing holistically.
I once saw a workshop with Christian McBride where he had the drummer play behind and ahead of the beat, it created a particular vibe. When McBride switched roles, if he played behind the beat the tempo slowed down. Ahead of the beat it sped up.
His lesson was, as a bass player always play in the middle!
