Bergantino's Vertical 410!!!!!

[kevk]

Is that a Milkman bass head? Didn't know they make bass amps too. Lovely products but way out of my price range.

Killer taste in furniture!

Thx! Milkman Sound makes primarily electric guitar amps, but does make one hybrid (tube pre/class d) bass amp.

 

[Fuzzbass]

Double debut of the NV410T yesterday: afternoon rehearsal with my harder rock band, evening gig with a classic rock/pop outfit. In short: the cab is everything I'd hoped for! I agree with kevk and Jim B. who said that there are differences in response between it and my beloved NV610 (i.e. Best Cab Ever Made By Anyone), but those differences are not significant and the 410 clearly has the NV magic. Bottom end is different from the usual ported bass cab designs, but there's still more than enough for me, even as a 5 stringer.

My only concern was that the ~80 pound cab is not that much lighter than the ~100 pound NV610, but in practice, 20 fewer pounds and the reduction in width makes a huge difference in terms of schlep and loading. It was awkward (to say the least) getting the NV610 positioned between the wheel wells in the cargo area of my Forester SUV, but the 410 is MUCH easier to deal with even though it's a few inches taller. It's also easier to tilt and roll. The narrower footprint makes it less stable than the 610 while rolling it, but all that means is the use of more caution when navigating turns and uneven ground. The positives far outweigh that slight negative! Of course the narrower footprint will be a huge advantage at the gig: didn't matter yesterday, but I play my share of gigs where every inch of stage space is valuable.

Back to tone: I tested with and without the FX pedals shown. The Darkglass head (2nd pic) is my usual for gigs: I chose it for the onboard distortion modules that I engage when I don't feel like bothering with pedals, but it sounds fine clean. The Reiner head sounds amazing when run clean! It's a boutique hybrid: SS ICE power module; preamp is all tube hand-wired with mil spec components. Anyway, I was thrilled with clean and dirty tones from both rigs. The 610 is a bit beefier in the low mids whereas the 410 favors mid-mids, but these aren't strong voicings -- just as kevk said, a bit of tweaking can compensate if desired.

I get it: first day hearing the cab so the honeymoon has just begun, but I'm a cynical old phart and mostly immune to that kind of romanticism.



P.S. I was happy enough running my Berg NXV stack (the "322" config, meaning 210 + 112). These are ported, tweeterless, lightweight neo, modular. I may miss the modular aspect at times: I played a few gigs using 2x10 alone, and last month I even soloed the 1x12. But my earbones are tuned to sealed and ceramic, so I may stick with the NV410 even for lower-volume Legion and "animal lodge" gigs.

 

[smeet]

View attachment 7311915View attachment 7311914

Double debut of the NV410T yesterday: afternoon rehearsal with my harder rock band, evening gig with a classic rock/pop outfit. In short: the cab is everything I'd hoped for! I agree with kevk and Jim B. who said that there are differences in response between it and my beloved NV610 (i.e. Best Cab Ever Made By Anyone), but those differences are not significant and the 410 clearly has the NV magic. Bottom end is different from the usual ported bass cab designs, but there's still more than enough for me, even as a 5 stringer.

My only concern was that the ~80 pound cab is not that much lighter than the ~100 pound NV610, but in practice, 20 fewer pounds and the reduction in width makes a huge difference in terms of schlep and loading. It was awkward (to say the least) getting the NV610 positioned between the wheel wells in the cargo area of my Forester SUV, but the 410 is MUCH easier to deal with even though it's a few inches taller. It's also easier to tilt and roll. The narrower footprint makes it less stable than the 610 while rolling it, but all that means is the use of more caution when navigating turns and uneven ground. The positives far outweigh that slight negative! Of course the narrower footprint will be a huge advantage at the gig: didn't matter yesterday, but I play my share of gigs where every inch of stage space is valuable.

Back to tone: I tested with and without the FX pedals shown. The Darkglass head (2nd pic) is my usual for gigs: I chose it for the onboard distortion modules that I engage when I don't feel like bothering with pedals, but it sounds fine clean. The Reiner head sounds amazing when run clean! It's a boutique hybrid: SS ICE power module; preamp is all tube hand-wired with mil spec components. Anyway, I was thrilled with clean and dirty tones from both rigs. The 610 is a bit beefier in the low mids whereas the 410 favors mid-mids, but these aren't strong voicings -- just as kevk said, a bit of tweaking can compensate if desired.

I get it: first day hearing the cab so the honeymoon has just begun, but I'm a cynical old phart and mostly immune to that kind of romanticism.



P.S. I was happy enough running my Berg NXV stack (the "322" config, meaning 210 + 112). These are ported, tweeterless, lightweight neo, modular. I may miss the modular aspect at times: I played a few gigs using 2x10 alone, and last month I even soloed the 1x12. But my earbones are tuned to sealed and ceramic, so I may stick with the NV410 even for lower-volume Legion and "animal lodge" gigs.

Dude, that looks amazing!

Since I'm an idiot, I just retired this year and bought a heavyish amp for the first time in a while (Genz Benz GBE 750). So I may as well get a heavyish cab too.

I'm sure the NV410T is super punchy. Can it do a big clean and clear sound with crystalline highs and thick lows kind of thing? Can you hit a low B and have it sound big and heavy?


EDIT: Does anybody in the Seattle area have these in a showroom to try out?

 

[MCF]

So while some of you are trying to determine if it's too tall, to narrow, not wide enough, or too heavy, just wanted to give you a quick PSA and let you know we only have 2 left.

Wow. That was pretty quick. I love my old NV610 and considered getting one of these. Decided I really didn’t need more cab. But I mentioned it to friends looking for something sealed other than Ampeg. It’s great you do these limited runs to fill a need for some.

 

[Fuzzbass]

I'm sure the NV410T is super punchy. Can it do a big clean and clear sound with crystalline highs and thick lows kind of thing? Can you hit a low B and have it sound big and heavy?

The NV410 definitely excels at punch of course. It has all the low end I want even down low as a 5 stringer (and air up top when the tweet is engaged) but I also appreciate the relatively tight lows of sealed at the gig. If you really need your low B to rumble efficiently, then you might prefer an FRFR cab.

Also, ported cabs apparently have a hard cutoff at the tuning frequency whereas sealed has a steady slope, but that's just what I've read here on TB so I have no idea how it may factor into your decision.

 

[bass12]

That's exactly it, sealed cabs are not for you. For those who like sealed, even five-stringers like me, the "natural HPF" works great to tighten up low end, which mitigates clash with the kick drum and keeps the live mix from getting too muddy in general.

Reggae is an unusual situation where powerful low-lows are welcome from bass guitar. IME sound techs generally want that from the FOH subs rather than the bass rig, but I get it, you can dial them back on your rig (perhaps with an electronic HPF) if necessary. So, go forth with "FRFR" and be happy.

I used to play in a reggae band that would back visiting Jamaican singers and I LOVED my AE410 for reggae. As you pointed out, a lot of the bass at a reggae concert (even in a relatively small room) is going to come from the PA but, in a way, that makes the tight punchiness of a sealed cabinet that much more useful. An AE410 and a Mesa D-800+ with the "Deep" switch flipped is reggae tone heaven.

 

[agedhorse]

Also, ported cabs apparently have a hard cutoff at the tuning frequency whereas sealed has a steady slope, but that's just what I've read here on TB so I have no idea how it may factor into your decision.

Ported cabinets do not have a "hard cutoff", they just have a steeper slope.

 

[LetItGrowTone]

Also, ported cabs apparently have a hard cutoff at the tuning frequency whereas sealed has a steady slope, but that's just what I've read here on TB

Aside to @Fuzzbass -
I'm not an expert but also "just what I've read here" is that the ported cab's rolloff is twice as steep, which could be good or bad:

-If you don't want to hear what your ported cab sounds like at 41Hz (which no one here ever says *explicitly*, but I digress), or for any of the other oft-cited reasons to cut it off, it's good. And do complete the coup de grâce with a HPF.

-If I do want to hear myself in that rolled-down region with a sealed cab, because it still sounds good in my opinion, I find the rolloff of a fridge (mentioned because I don't own a Bergantino) to sound natural and work well.

-One of our most beloved posters said that he used a fridge (for many years I think) and his preference was to boost at 41Hz a little, and I guess he did that because it sounded good. I think so. One of several places he has said this was in a thread about a brand of ported cabs tuned below 41Hz, as he liked more FRFR.

-My own experience was this: Due to inexperience I bought a ported cab after seeing the specs which said it was down xdB @ 40Hz, not worried because I figured I'd just raise that back up a little with EQ (and also not worried because the cab designer described it as "almost FRFR"). This led to figuring out that it was not *just* rolled down but also, in my opinion, sounded crummy down there, so I didn't want to boost that; I would have cut it off with a HPF (wisely built into the amp I owned of the same brand) as the Gospel, as someone described it,
prescribes, but instead resolved to commit to either sealed, or ported tuned lower than 41Hz. Very few of those.
This was my reply to Fuzzbass.

 

[Jim Bergantino]

Sealed designs have some qualities and characteristics over ported cabs which again deserve mentioning in this particular thread.

First and foremost, due to their shallower rolloff (12db/octave vs. 24/db/ictave) their bass quality is more natural due to the fact the entire bass signal is coming off the woofer(s) and is not being augmented by a port which is reacting to the backward motion of the cones. This also results in a lower group delay because of this shallower rolloff. Just the physics of it.

In smaller rooms, this 12db/octave rolloff compliments better the room gain which can typically be as much as 12/db octave at lower frequencies. How many remember their Jensen 6x9 speakers mounted in the rear deck of the cars with an fs of about 90hz but with an in car bass response easily down to 40hz. That’s because below 90hz the cabin area of the car went from a free field environment to a constant pressure environment, where the cabin gain of +12db/octave offset or complimented the -12db rolloff of the 6x9’s. Thats also why after market, ported subwoofers in cars are boomy and horrible sounding, IMO, especially if you’re after a balanced quality bass response.

Sealed cabs also have a natural hpf filter effect to them, utilizing the sealed cab from allowing them to “unload” and result in over excursion, whereas a ported cab will start to unload below the tuning frequency resulting it higher excursion without any increase in bass response along with a muddier sound, not to mention possible damage if not careful. That’s why some form of high pass filtering is important and very beneficial when using a ported cab.

And finally, although typical ported cabs will have about 3db more output centered at their tuning frequency, a sealed cab due to its shallower rolloff will eventually have more extended, lower frequency output.

These qualities of sealed cabs, however, don’t come free of charge. They typically come at the expense of sensitivity requiring either more amp power, or more speakers, or both.

As it’s been said many times by me. There are no free lunches except at mom’s house. And those eggplant parm and stuff pepper sandwiches “tasted” at least as good as the bass quality of a sealed cab!;-)

 

[agedhorse]

Though IME, MOST (not all) players over the years have consistently shown a marked preference for the performance of ported cabinets.

IMO, it’s because there is more LF energy present throughout the -3 through -6 dB region combined with the generally higher overall sensitivity.

SOME of this can be overcome by using multiple drivers, but then the tradeoffs that Jim mentioned (more power, more speakers) which grows the size and weight.

It’s different strokes for different folks stuff. There is no single correct approach for all players.

 

[staccatogrowl]

While not having specific experience with a completely sealed cabinet, I do have a few cabinets that have plumber plugs to close off some or all of the ports. I typically close all but one of those, taming boominess (HPF takes care of the rest), as well as allowing for some driver cooling inside the cabinet. Looking forward to trying a sealed Berg. .

 

[Jim Bergantino]

Though IME, MOST (not all) players over the years have consistently shown a marked preference for the performance of ported cabinets.

IMO, it’s because there is more LF energy present throughout the -3 through -6 dB region combined with the generally higher overall sensitivity.

SOME of this can be overcome by using multiple drivers, but then the tradeoffs that Jim mentioned (more power, more speakers) which grows the size and weight.

It’s different strokes for different folks stuff. There is no single correct approach for all players.

I agree, but maybe for different reasons. I believe if one could design a sealed cabinet in a similar size and weight as a ported cabinet with similar sensitivity specs, more would opt for the tone and performance of the sealed design, IMO of course. But given that that design goal is virtually impossible to meet is the reason why most of my designs are ported. No free lunches.

 

[Wasnex]

his preference was to boost at 41Hz a little, and I guess he did that because it sounded good. I think so. One of several places he has said this was in a thread about a brand of ported cabs tuned below 41Hz, as he liked more FRFR.

Not sure, but this may be a reference to comments I have made. Some additional context is probably inline if it is.

The first bass rig I bought was a brand new MTI era Ampeg SVT and 810. I had it special ordered based on it's reputation as the "best." However, within seconds of playing it for the first time, it was clear I had made a mistake. Despite the fact that millions of people think it's a great rig, the tone of the 810 is really not my cup of tea. IMHO, no highs and no lows.

I found that there was no amount of EQ that would make the cab produce the type of highs that I wanted, but the low end took EQ really well. In order to get the FRFR sound I wanted, I ran biamp. Below 200hz was sent to the SVT and 810. Above 200hz was sent to a Fender Twin Reverb loaded with JBL E120s. For crossover and EQ, I added an Orban 672A, which I had read about in a Stanley Clarke interview.

I used two bands of parametric EQ centered at the fundamental of the Low E string. One band of EQ was fairly narrow and the other was fairly wide. I used my ears to adjust the gain and bandwidth to get full and smooth response down to the open E. The combined gain I added at the center frequency was around 13dB-17dB.

I used quite a bit of other EQ as well. In particular I put a little narrow-band cut at 80z. Between the 40hz boost and 80hz cut, I felt this focused the tone of the E string noticeably. My recollection is the low end really did sound great.

I also have experience with Bag End ELF subs, which are now called INFRA. INFRA subs are relatively small and sealed, but are supposed to be capable of flat response to something like 8hz. The way this is achieved is by using a processor to apply a 12dB per octave boost to mirror the 12dB per octave roll off of the sealed design. This amount of boost eats up a lot of power and IME the subs will run out of headroom down low way before they hit the limit at the top of their range. To mitigate this, Bag End processors use limiters and also a variable high pass filter that they call Concealment. Basically as the signal approaches the LF limits of the system, the Concealment circuit shifts the LF cutoff to a higher frequency. A modest levels of Concealment with regular program material this is fairly unobtrusive.

Around 1995, I spec'd a PA system with four Bag End S18 compact ELF subs. The cabinets of the compacts were basically half the volume of a regular S18. I needed really small subs to stuff a full rock band with a full PA into a 7-passenger leer jet. Otherwise I would have chosen the regular S18. I had 2 QSC PL 1.8s for the subs, to feed each S18 compact 400W. My experiments with the system resulted in setting the LF cut off of the system to about 40hz. If the cut off was run lower, the Concealment circuit become fairly audible before the system approached it's limit. I thought the subs sounded good, but not exceptional. Also I think a single quality modern 18 could bury four of them down to 40hz.

Years later I found out this system was highly regarded for it's portability and used for almost 15 years. So my perception is it was very successful.

In generally I find I prefer ported cabs. I do have a theoretical concern with accuracy of the frequency range produced primarily by the port. But in the experiments I have done with quality cab designs, I have not found the tone to be offensive. Perhaps it is and I just don't perceive it. So IMHO ported is not necessarily better in every way, but it's the trade off I typically prefer when extended LF response is desired.

 

[smeet]

OK, I contacted Jim and the NV410T was ALL SOLD OUT!!!

But there was one left deep in the jungles of Illinois. So I bought the last one in the world. Hopefully that worked, but barring my usual luck I should have one of the Black Cherry specimens in hand shortly.

 

[agedhorse]

I agree, but maybe for different reasons. I believe if one could design a sealed cabinet in a similar size and weight as a ported cabinet with similar sensitivity specs, more would opt for the tone and performance of the sealed design, IMO of course. But given that that design goal is virtually impossible to meet is the reason why most of my designs are ported. No free lunches.

Yup, real world reality hits us square between the eyes every time!

 

[LetItGrowTone]

To @Wasnex:

Not sure, but this may be a reference to comments I have made

Yes, more than once and I took note. Thank you very much.

 

[WG Plum]

OK, I contacted Jim and the NV410T was ALL SOLD OUT!!!

But there was one left deep in the jungles of Illinois. So I bought the last one in the world. Hopefully that worked, but barring my usual luck I should have one of the Black Cherry specimens in hand shortly.

Congrats! The only folks in Seattle that would have been likely to have one would be Chad and Jeff at The Bass Shop, and Chad's seemed a little grouchy the last few times I've been in there. I know they had some issues with Gibson and getting Mesa stuff at one point last year or the year before, but I think that got worked out. Given that I bought my Forte HP (v1) new and it had been there for a long time, I'm not sure how things are working or what their supplier arrangements are these days. I know their consignment business is plenty robust, though. I just sold a couple of basses through them.

 

[Jim Bergantino]

Yup, real world reality hits us square between the eyes every time!

True. But that doesn’t mean there still isn’t a good amount of bass players who appreciate the quality of tone from a properly designed, ceramic loaded, sealed cabinet. And I am happy to oblige!;-).

 

[tombowlus]

True. But that doesn’t mean there still isn’t a good amount of bass players who appreciate the quality of tone from a properly designed, ceramic loaded, sealed cabinet. And I am happy to oblige!;-).

+1 You know I love your designs, Jim. But I have to say, this NV410T is making a strong statement. It does so many things so very well. I am thinking it is a "Top 10" Bergantino design, at the minimum. Possibly Top 5 or so...

Thank you!

 

[Jim Bergantino]

+1 You know I love your designs, Jim. But I have to say, this NV410T is making a strong statement. It does so many things so very well. I am thinking it is a "Top 10" Bergantino design, at the minimum. Possibly Top 5 or so...

Thank you!

And thus it had to be eliminated, LOL!;-)