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Best Class D Bass Amps???

#281
When I first got my 800+ I had a similar sort of thought regarding perceived output. The difference to me is the voicing. The Subway is a bit tight/stiff whereas my older tube amps or even the Tone Hammer 500 are much looser, all effecting the overall sound and perceived volume. All of this matches Agedhorse's comments.

I realized the Subway wasn't exactly the voicing I want, so I sold it. But I bought used and didn't take a bath on it. Buying used to try different gear that you aren't sure you'll like is highly advisable. And that makes the classifieds on this site very valuable.
 
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#282
Note that a word was missing from my post above... should read "is different than most typical (tube) bass amps". Solid state amps of all types in general tend to be tighter, stiffer and often a little deeper sounding. In fact, that's one of the reasons the larger solid state bass amps (by all manufacturers) are preferred. With ported cabinets, this can be a big advantage because of the total Q of the resultant system.
 
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#283
another piece that hasn't been said...

How is a single tube watt going to a cabinet any different than a single D class watt going to the same cab?
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as I understand it, the distortion characteristics of a tube power amp section differ from solid state (of any sort) significantly and in general sound smoother and more musical. So... as you push a tube power section into distortion, it sounds less jarring and more musical while the solid state is more harsh and so perhaps sticks out more. Given that wattage ratings are given at a certain percentage of THD, you can push a tube past that while still sounding musical but the solid state design is more of a hard barrier. That becomes even more of an issue when there are loud peaks/transients to notes. The tube amp can go way beyond its stated wattage while still sounding "good" while the solid state hits the wall of its rating. All of that makes it seem that a tube amp is louder than a solid state watt when a watt really is a watt is a watt is a watt.

Obviously this is a different discussion than pre-amp distortion...

Second, if the class D amps actually go lower in frequency... It takes fewer watts to reproduce a higher frequency (relatively) than a lower one at a given volume... We see that in bi & tri amped systems where the sub woofers require significantly higher power than the higher frequency speakers to stay balanced. Or your guitar player with a 50 watt head keeping up with that 400 watt all tube bass amp.So, if an amp is reproducing 1/3 more octave of low end, it requires more watts to make those notes happen.

And then there is the tone stack, voicing, level of signal coming from the pre-amp, and damping, all of which play with our perception of volume or actually impact it in a direct way.

What I'm getting through this thread is pretty simple... @foothilla is expecting his class D head to act like his tube head and it isn't designed to do so. Because it does not, he is assuming that the wattage rating is squirrelly... the reality is that it is a different tool. The two heads he owns really do different things. The tool he really wants is his Mesa 400+. For me, the class D does what I want/need (in my case a Genzler M800).
 
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#284
I believe the better question is to ask which class D amps are known to had/have issues since those are fewer. Otherwise, "best" is subjective as all heck.

I prefer class D amps for hauling and playing, but tube SE amps for small practice amps. I've not found a tube PP design for practice that I like unless it's with a 12" speaker. Those are just my preferences.
 
#285
As mentioned, the 400+ and the D800 have different voicings. I don't know the difference between the way these two amps are voiced, but this can have an impact on perceived loudness.

Our ears don't have linear frequency response. If a bass rig is voiced such that it has more output at frequencies where our ears are more sensitive it could be perceived as being louder, even though the amount of power (measured in watts) is the same. Output power in watts can be measured. Measuring the frequency response of your individual ears (along with your ears' interaction with your entire head subassembly- that is, your noggin, not your amp head!) is a whole different problem.

If a chunk of your power is being used to reproduce E or B string fundamentals, then that bass rig might not seem as loud as another rig that puts out the exact same number of watts, but isn't trying to push air below 50Hz.
 
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#289
I wrote earlier that the class D's I tried don't hold a candle to my Hartke LH-500 in terms of getting a Marcus Miller sound. Well I found a micro that's a bit better, with a greater range of settings: the G&K MB 800. It does have 3 tubes, but it's a micro that fits in a small gig bag. Too pricey, but what a great little amp. (The Hartke's kept in my car as a back up now) Now with my 2 × 12" Mark Bass 122 Ninja Richard Bono Signature cabinet replacing my old SWR Goliath III 4×10" cabinet, I can literally bring everything in with one trip from my car.
 
#291
My ENGL Ironbass Class D with tube pre sounds as though it has extended lows, but I've always attributed it to the ENGL ported 410 cab that it's hooked into or at least the combination. It produces very deep and clear lows, completely different than my all tube SVT into an 810. I like the Class D equally as well as my all tube amp. For louder stuff, the edge still goes to the tube amp though, not because of volume, because of the sound.
 
#292
agedhorse said:
So you guys are figuring out that the native tighter, extended low frequency response of the Subway amps really is different than most typical (tube) bass amps. This is part of the voicing differences that I was talking about.

Part of the reason, as I suggested earlier, that typical tube amps sound louder for the rated power is because the tube amp is not reproducing the bottom ~1/3 octave that the Subway is. By rolling the HPF up (quite a bit in your case), the power required to develop the SPL is lower, just like a tube amp!!!

(edit for missing word)
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OK, Andy. I'm convinced. Next time I come to Orlando, I expect to go into Bass Central and pick up the D-800-+ and the Berg 212 I've been eyeing for a bit. I've come to trust your judgement, experience, and abilities. I recently bought the MBFusion800 and love it, but 2 ohm stability, tonal features, and Mesa's reputation and warrantee are worth the investment.

Your wise council is appreciated.
 
#293
ELG60 said:
OK, Andy. I'm convinced. Next time I come to Orlando, I expect to go into Bass Central and pick up the D-800-+ and the Berg 212 I've been eyeing for a bit. I've come to trust your judgement, experience, and abilities. I recently bought the MBFusion800 and love it, but 2 ohm stability, tonal features, and Mesa's reputation and warrantee are worth the investment.

Your wise council is appreciated.
Click to expand...

See if it fits with your personal tone preferences and goals. Every player is different, which is why there are many successful flavors. There is no "best" amp out there, no matter what marketing folks or internet experts might suggest. When you find something that YOU enjoy playing, and meets your goals, you have found YOUR perfect amp.
 
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#294
@agedhorse no truer words, it’s all about what works for you.
Guitarist I know, but look at Ty Tabor from Kings X, he used an old cheap lab series solid state when the whole world was tube amps, and used an ‘83 Fender Strat elite.
No one used that, but everyone was digging his tone and wondering how he did it (as well as his hands).
Jerry Cantrell Alice in Chains had a cheap second hand Pawn shop G&L rampage, no one uses that but we all love what they produce.

Do what you want bro, if it’s mainstream and industry standard that’s cool, if it’s off piste that’s cool too
 
#296
foothilla said:
Then the Tonehammer is out for me. I fool around with distortion for home entertainment value, but for gigs I only play clean. If you can't get good clean tones out of the Tonehammer, then it's definitely not for me.

Funny you say that about the Mesa not having enough brightness, because from the demos I heard online, it sounded too bright to me. I was kind of dropping it way down on my list, because judging from the online demos I didn't think it would have enough warmth. But, being one of the only suggestions that I can actually find locally to test, I am going to go play it tomorrow.

How is the Markbass? Was kinda surprised no one here has endorsed that yet. I've never had any of their stuff, but it seems to consistently get reviewed well.
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I have a MarkBass Little Mark lll and find it to be a clean yet warm amp. Plenty of power too. Definitely fits your description of wants/needs. An easy amp to understand too! FWIW, I also own the Tonehammer 500. I love both amps but feel that the MarkBass approaches your desires effortlessly. IMHO
 
#297
bdplaid said:
I'm always surprised that the TH gets such great reviews. I found nothing to recommend it. I guess I don't hear what others do in it. I like the Rumble 500 a million times more - and the Rumble also has a distortion channel that sounds pretty good.



If you can check it out, do so! I have the Subway D800 and matching 115 and 112 cabs. It's the only rig on which I have turned UP the tweeters. And my sound is very much not bright nor zingy, not Marcus Miller. For what I like, think Freddie Washington on Forget-me-nots.



Lack of MarkBass is a surprise to me too. It has a native sound that is either very flat, or mid-rangey, depending on whom one asks. It can bring the beef if one turns up the low end, but it's native sound is more about midrange. The VLE knob - Vintage Loudspeaker Emulation, basically a LPF - is one of the great things about the amp in that one can dial out the tweeter gradually from the amp. I think MB amps work best when paired with Markbass cabs, but I use mine (Little Mark 800 and F500) into just about anything and can usually get something good from it, but sometimes it does take a little work to get there.

To be clear though, in a lot of ways Markbass is the opposite of the D800. Where the MarkBass is about midrange and articulation, the D800 is about "push," lots of low end while retaining the articulation. The Rumble 500 falls somewhere in the middle, but toward the D800. For punch and good low end, these are all worth looking at.

One other thing - I found the Subway 115 cab to be a real gem. It makes all my amps sound better.
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I put a Sadowsky preamp in front of the LittleMark lll and it sounds great, IMHO.
 
#298
"I own the BH800 and both RH heads and while the BH has the Toneprints which are pretty cool, the RH heads are built to emulate both pre and power tube amps. I always enjoy playing the BH800 but the RH heads just speak to me. IMHO, IME, YMMV.
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Ooh... maybe the RH450 is up my alley. I tried a BH of some kind (800 I believe) and didn't care for it, but to my knowledge they're not an attempt to emulate the sound of tubes.
 
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#300
So many great options out there. Many many great companies are mass producing quality class D amps. Just a matter of what you are looking for. Been there done that with the whole 40 pound amplifier, never again. I like the simplicity of my GK MB 800, and of course, the sound. It cranks, and other musicians and people in the crowd trip out so much power is coming from such a small package. Those Berg B amps are also best in class right now. Needs and wants, like anything else.
 

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