Best Class D Bass Amps???

[foothilla]

The doubling of watts, is not the doubling of volume; and then you have the tube vs. D class watts as well.

I didn't say it should be double the volume, I said it shouldn't have less headroom than an amp rated at half it's power.

How is a single tube watt going to a cabinet any different than a single D class watt going to the same cab?

 

[foothilla]

In fact it may have everything to do with preferences, as the voicing between the two amps is quite different. Different voicings can easily give the impression of more or less power into identical cabinets. Even within a single company's amp line will be products with significantly different properties. For example, the Strategy and Prodigy are very, very different than the Subway and Walkabout. (for a good reason)

Your experience is clearly different than other players here, I really suggest that you just play what you prefer.

Really? Direct me to a post from another player that has extensively used a 400+ and a D800+ and disagrees with my headroom assessment of the two amps.

I have experimented with a ton of different settings on the D800+. No matter how you set it up, it has far less headroom than the 400+. While it sounds good and is light, the D800+ is the wimpiest 800 watts I have ever experienced. Granted, it is my first class D amp, so maybe that is the norm with class D. But, if there is going to be such disparity between wattage ratings, then the ratings are useless and potentially misleading.

 

[Bassworship1]

I didn't say that I am "dissatisfied with it". I said it has less headroom that an amp rated at half the power, from the same manufacturer. There are times at rehearsal that I run out of headroom, but as of today I haven't made any effort to sell it.

There isn't much point in having a conversation with you, if you are going to put words into my mouth.

First off, the first time using a Lol should show that I was joking. Secondly, yes you did show that you are aggravated with the amp by stating the company was using smoke and mirrors and stating how it would be hard to trust a company that states the amp is 800 watts when clearly you know it's not. Anyways good day to you sir and I'll be watching for your 800+ in the classifieds.

 

[bucephylus]

Really? Direct me to a post from another player that has extensively used a 400+ and a D800+ and disagrees with my headroom assessment of the two amps.

I have experimented with a ton of different settings on the D800+. No matter how you set it up, it has far less headroom than the 400+. While it sounds good and is light, the D800+ is the wimpiest 800 watts I have ever experienced. Granted, it is my first class D amp, so maybe that is the norm with class D. But, if there is going to be such disparity between wattage ratings, then the ratings are useless and potentially misleading.

That's just a really disrespectful post. You either have an amp that has technical issues or you don't understand how to use it. IMO/E

 

[pfschim]

Really? Direct me to a post from another player that has extensively used a 400+ and a D800+ and disagrees with my headroom assessment of the two amps.

I have experimented with a ton of different settings on the D800+. No matter how you set it up, it has far less headroom than the 400+. While it sounds good and is light, the D800+ is the wimpiest 800 watts I have ever experienced. Granted, it is my first class D amp, so maybe that is the norm with class D. But, if there is going to be such disparity between wattage ratings, then the ratings are useless and potentially misleading.

not to confuse matters further but the 400+ is rated at about 275w @ 4ohms and about 500w @ 2ohms.
also, to the OP, it might serve you better to be a bit more reasonable in your posts, particularly to Andy/Aged Horse. He is almost certainly more knowledgeable than most of us here (including you) on amp design (of all kinds) and design goals. He is also typically a very helpful source for Mesa gear as he is a Sr Designer (and all around great ambassador) for that company (as well as Genz Benz).

Reading your posts its clear you are frustrated about something, but its not entirely clear what. You had a 400+, got tired of it, asked about the "Best Class D Amps" and got some good answers based on TB members experience. You seemed to have settled on the Mesa D800+ and now are unhappy about its perceived power output vs your old amp. You got some useful replies on that situation but still seem to be peeved. What is it that all of us here on TB can do for you ?

 

[sneauxman]

Any chance the input pad is engaged on the 800....features doesn't exist on the 400. All of my basses are active but I never use the input pad.... Besides for 18v preamps.

Not meant to be insulting... Just getting back to the simplest difference I can see in overall output

 

[foothilla]

First off time using a Lol should show that I was joking. Secondly, yes you did show that you are aggravated with the amp by stating the company was using smome and mirrors and stating how it would be hard to trust a company. Anyways good day to you sir and I'll be watching for your 800+ in the classifieds.

I am not "aggravated by the amp". I am annoyed by wattage claims that completely mislead/confuse consumers.

Don't hold your breath on seeing it in the classifieds. I already have designs on the D800+ become my emergency backup amp, after I find my next head. But truthfully, after having it for a while, I would sell it if I could get the bulk of my purchase price back out of it. But, since I'd lose a bunch of cash, it'll just eventually become my lightweight, emergency backup.

...but, if I could go back in time, I wouldn't buy the Mesa D800+ again.

 

[foothilla]

That's just a really disrespectful post. You either have an amp that has technical issues or you don't understand how to use it. IMO/E

It's not a disrespectful post at all. I am simply sharing a real life experience with two Mesa Boogie amps. I paid a lot of hard earned money for those amps, and as such I think I have the right to share my direct experience with them. I didn't call anyone names, or insult anyone's abilities.

If anything is disrespectful it's telling a bass player of 35 years that that he doesn't understand how to operate a relatively simple, basic amp head.

 

[foothilla]

not to confuse matters further but the 400+ is rated at about 275w @ 4ohms and about 500w @ 2ohms.
also, to the OP, it might serve you better to be a bit more reasonable in your posts, particularly to Andy/Aged Horse. He is almost certainly more knowledgeable than most of us here (including you) on amp design (of all kinds) and design goals. He is also typically a very helpful source for Mesa gear as he is a Sr Designer (and all around great ambassador) for that company (as well as Genz Benz).

Reading your posts its clear you are frustrated about something, but its not entirely clear what. You had a 400+, got tired of it, asked about the "Best Class D Amps" and got some good answers based on TB members experience. You seemed to have settled on the Mesa D800+ and now are unhappy about its perceived power output vs your old amp. You got some useful replies on that situation but still seem to be peeved. What is it that all of us here on TB can do for you ?

You're correct, the 400+ is not even rated at 400 watts @ 4ohms - which just further highlights the oddity of the wattage rating claims.

As far as Andy goes, I wasn't being even remotely unreasonable with him. If anything, I have contributed to Andy's income by buying countless Mesa products over the years. I've used nothing but Mesa, Eden and EBS amps for the past 20 years,..along with a variety of cabinets that included several Mesa cabs.

Of course Andy knows more about engineering than most of us here. But, that doesn't negate my civil, valid, fair observations. Why even put wattage ratings out there if your 275 watt amp has more headroom than your 800 watt amp? All that does it confuse and mislead the bulk of customers. You don't need a degree in electrical engineering to realize that.

The "usefulness" of the replies about the wattage disparity is highly debatable. From my honest perspective it seemed to be illogical excuse making, not so much "useful". As such, if I am frustrated about anything it's frustration at the seemingly desperate excuses being made for these misleading wattage specifications. Most musicians aren't electrical engineers, and they absolutely expect an 800 watt amp to move more air than a 275 watt amp.

Price seems to be the real wattage rating. It doesn't seem to be a coincidence that the 275 watt amp with superior headroom costs considerably more than the 800 watt amp that is comparatively anemic in the power department.

 

[foothilla]

Any chance the input pad is engaged on the 800....features doesn't exist on the 400. All of my basses are active but I never use the input pad.... Besides for 18v preamps.

Not meant to be insulting... Just getting back to the simplest difference I can see in overall output

I use the pad for my active basses, no pad for the passive basses.

 

[agedhorse]

Simple solution... if the amp design rant work for you, if you feel that it doesn't have enough headroom, or is unsuitable for your needs, return it and look for something more suitable for your needs. Nothing I can do or say is going to help you with your perceptions.

 

[foothilla]

Simple solution... if the amp design rant work for you, if you feel that it doesn't have enough headroom, or is unsuitable for your needs, return it and look for something more suitable for your needs. Nothing I can do or say is going to help you with your perceptions.

If I could return it, I would. But I purchased it months ago,......so that solution isn't simple, or viable.

Sir,....just so I perfectly understand your perceptions,....you are Mesa's head designer,.....are you claiming that if we hypothetically met at the main Mesa Boogie store in Hollywood that you could take a 2x15 Mesa cabinet and produce more clean headroom with the "800 watt" D800+ than you could with the "275 watt" 400+?

...because I am a half hour from the Mesa store and I would show up any day of the week for that demonstration.

And if you can't produce more clean headroom with the 800 watt amp than you can with the 275 watt amp, then surely you can understand consumer frustration with wattage claims. That is my only point. Otherwise, for the weight and price, the D800+ is a solid little amp. I just wish I spent a few more bucks for something more than just a solid little amp.

 

[bucephylus]

It's not a disrespectful post at all. I am simply sharing a real life experience with two Mesa Boogie amps. I paid a lot of hard earned money for those amps, and as such I think I have the right to share my direct experience with them. I didn't call anyone names, or insult anyone's abilities.

If anything is disrespectful it's telling a bass player of 35 years that that he doesn't understand how to operate a relatively simple, basic amp head.

There is so much wrong about your post, I'm not sure where to begin. All I said was that if you weren't getting adequate volume from that amp, then there was either something wrong with the amp or you weren't using it correctly. I didn't say you didn't "understand how to operate" the head. Please lighten up. That head has plenty of power if it is working correctly. Andy is available to help. Try PM'ing him to sort out the issues. There may indeed be some voicing preference issues, particularly if you are using a P, and trying to get that big hollow sound. Tube amps do tend to do that best, though there are solutions in the SS realm as well.

 

[Kirk Bryant]

Perhaps you might try the 2400 watt Julie Amp.

 

[Jeff Scott]

....you are Mesa's head designer,.....are you claiming that if we hypothetically met at the main Mesa Boogie store in Hollywood that you could take a 2x15 Mesa cabinet and produce more clean headroom with the "800 watt" D800+ than you could with the "275 watt" 400+?

...because I am a half hour from the Mesa store and I would show up any day of the week for that demonstration...

This could be fun. How much are tickets to the show?

 

[agedhorse]

I'm saying that the amps (Bass 400+ and Subway 800+) are very different sounding and feeling amps. This can easily appear to account for the headroom perception.

Try running with the master at about 2:00, HPF about 10:00, the voicing about 10:00 and the eq flat. Drive it until the output limit LED is flashing about 20% of the time (engaging the output tube emulation circuitry) and see if this is closer.

 

[bucephylus]

....are you claiming that if we hypothetically met at the main Mesa Boogie store in Hollywood that you could take a 2x15 Mesa cabinet and produce more clean headroom with the "800 watt" D800+ than you could with the "275 watt" 400+?

Now, that is an entirely reasonable question.

Just to clarify my comment above relative to using the new amp properly, you do have to evaluate each amp in the CONTEXT of your signal chain. Including bass, effects, cabinet(s) and working mix. Just because amps may put out such and such watts on the bench does not necessarily translate into the amp working for you.

My only head to head experience occurred when I was gigging a TE Hexavalve on top of a Bergantino NV610 for fairly straightforward R&B/Classic Rock club gigs. The Hex had 6 x 6550 Class output tubes, which is not too far off your 400+ output. I happened to pick up a GB Shuttle 9.0, and just for laughs put it on the Berg. It actually had noticeably more clean headspace with that cab than the Hex. And, believe me, the Hex was in optimal operating condition. In fact, I had two of those at the time as back up in case of shop work. I actually gigged that rig for the better part of a year, before a move forced me to sell the NV610.

My only point being that we are with you that the amp you choose has to meet your needs. There may indeed be something about the amp that doesn't work for you with your signal chain. Back to my experience with the Shuttle 9.0, that amp also completely failed to deliver into a pair of older Flite cabs I had at the time, one of which was most unusual. My $0.019 there is that the SMPS outputs don't play well with inefficient cabs. My cabs now are all very efficient. I've driven them with Class D head to head with the SVT; and all I can say there is that the Class D can be at least as useful as the SVT, since I did not take either rig into ear bleed decimation.

 

[pfschim]

If I could return it, I would. But I purchased it months ago,......so that solution isn't simple, or viable.

Sir,....just so I perfectly understand your perceptions,....you are Mesa's head designer,.....are you claiming that if we hypothetically met at the main Mesa Boogie store in Hollywood that you could take a 2x15 Mesa cabinet and produce more clean headroom with the "800 watt" D800+ than you could with the "275 watt" 400+?

...because I am a half hour from the Mesa store and I would show up any day of the week for that demonstration.

And if you can't produce more clean headroom with the 800 watt amp than you can with the 275 watt amp, then surely you can understand consumer frustration with wattage claims. That is my only point. Otherwise, for the weight and price, the D800+ is a solid little amp. I just wish I spent a few more bucks for something more than just a solid little amp.

I'm guessing you are perceiving these differences in "moving air" rather than scoping them or using a db meter. Not saying your ears are wrong, just saying that what any one of us hears (particularly when we get angry about some piece of gear) is not a quantitative measurement of anything. Andy has already pointed out that the lower damping factor could at least be part of what you are "hearing" as headroom differences between these amps.
Perception is not always reality

Also, it's one thing to express a personal perception, and its an entirely other thing to start making noisy and angry claims of false power ratings by any manufacturer based on your opinion unsupported by any quantifiable facts.


I understand the watts rating challenge when looking at an amp that is called a 400 or 400+. We have already clarified the measured output of the 400+ amps. In more recent (15 years) Mesa bass products like the MPulse series (600 and 360), Walkabout, Carbine/M series, Strategy and Prodigy and the 800/800+, Mesa has been very straight forward (and sometimes pretty conservative) about amp wattage ratings, and this has been confirmed by independent testers. I'm willing to bet that the 800/800+ will hit their advertised wattage/output cleanly.

good luck with your amp search.

 

[Tim1]

Really? Direct me to a post from another player that has extensively used a 400+ and a D800+ and disagrees with my headroom assessment of the two amps.

I have experimented with a ton of different settings on the D800+. No matter how you set it up, it has far less headroom than the 400+. While it sounds good and is light, the D800+ is the wimpiest 800 watts I have ever experienced. Granted, it is my first class D amp, so maybe that is the norm with class D. But, if there is going to be such disparity between wattage ratings, then the ratings are useless and potentially misleading.

I used a 400+ for a few years back in the day, and I can well remember doing the common preamp tube mod of swapping a 12AX7 for a 12AU7 to tame the volume/sensitivity. It appeared to be a ridiculously loud amp and was certainly non-linear in the volume controls response, with much of the volume coming early on and after that it became unbearably harsh to my ears. I like a clean sound so its useable volume for my tone was certainly no more than my recently arrived D800+.
As has been pointed out, beauty is in the eyes/ears of the beholder/listener. I prefer the useable tones I can get out of my D800+ over what I could get from the 400+, although it was a long time ago that I used a 400+. I have yet to give the D800+ a fully cranked workout, but as I have stated earlier its volume increase seems far more user friendly than other heads I have used and it just keeps getting louder in a smooth way.
I am a long term tube addict, and currently have in the stable an Ampeg V4B, Fender Super Bassman 300, Orange AD200 and Trace Elliott V4. I think what you may be hearing is the much debated "tube watts vs transistor watts" argument. I have always felt that tubes overdrive more euphoniously than solid state, so they remain useable at a louder volume.
I am not an engineer but I can use my ears, and since you seem to be seeking a response from others who have played and owned both a D800+ and a 400+ these are my thoughts. It did take me a little while to realise that the volume control on the 800+ responds smoothly in a manner which I have not experienced before, but I do wonder whether there might be a fault in yours. All that said, my old 400+ was ridiculously sensitive as I have said, which certainly gave the impression of ridiculous volume....most of which was unuseable for my preferred clean tone.

 

[bertthebassist]

The Bass 400+ is also voiced differently and has looser damping which can make it sound a little louder and bloomier.

agedhorse
Tell us more about damping. Between damping, transformers and a few other things, we may be hitting on the reason why older medium watt, heavy amps seem to be louder and have a heavier bottom end, than hi watt, light weight amps.

I understand foothilla. Both my Mesa m6 (600w) and Prodigy (250w) are cleaner and have a lot more "heft" and bloom in the deep low bass compared to any of the light weight, hi watt (700+) amps that I have tried. I find the light weights to not go as deep, or as cleanly loud, or to change the sound giving my basses a tinge of "synthesizer sound" (I don't know how to explain it, it is not distortion, but it certainly is not clean, either).

When are you going to come out with a light weight "bloomy" amp for us bottom dwellers? Subways 800, 800+, Aguilars TH500, AG700, Quilter BB800, Genzler MG800 and GK MBF800 did not do it for me.