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Best Class D Bass Amps???

#261
agedhorse said:
I'm saying that the amps (Bass 400+ and Subway 800+) are very different sounding and feeling amps. This can easily appear to account for the headroom perception.
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See, this is something most players experience and it ain't new.
We used to get by anywhere with a 4x10 and 200W and in many cases, gigged succesfully with 100W 15" combos.
Now that we have 500+ W amps readily available with speakers that don't even compare, yet they don't seem to pack the same punch as heavy duty old amps.

If it's all a voicing issue, maybe the current trend of having mostly flat response with extended lows is a mistake from designers.
It apparently isn't what a lot of people are after and this crowd isn't the most prone to investigate fine EQing. They want to plug and rock.

I know it's easier to sculpt a tone from flat than getting transparency from a colored preamp but don't you think an otherwise transparent Subway with a simple Buster or 400+ voicing switch could be really successful, since so many people are after this kind of thick, punchy delivery?

I believe it is a lot of what made the success of the Streamliner compared to say, the Shuttle. You plugged in and it sounded like mean business instantly.
 
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#264
bertthebassist said:
agedhorse
Tell us more about damping. Between damping, transformers and a few other things, we may be hitting on the reason why older medium watt, heavy amps seem to be louder and have a heavier bottom end, than hi watt, light weight amps.

I understand foothilla. Both my Mesa m6 (600w) and Prodigy (250w) are cleaner and have a lot more "heft" and bloom in the deep low bass compared to any of the light weight, hi watt (700+) amps that I have tried. I find the light weights to not go as deep, or as cleanly loud, or to change the sound giving my basses a tinge of "synthesizer sound" (I don't know how to explain it, it is not distortion, but it certainly is not clean, either).

When are you going to come out with a light weight "bloomy" amp for us bottom dwellers? Subways 800, 800+, Aguilars TH500, AG700, Quilter BB800, Genzler MG800 and GK MBF800 did not do it for me.
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An interesting perspective, and totally opposite to my experience with the Mesa 800+. Coupled to Barefaced 10 cabs I initially found the 800+ to be quite a "bloomy" head, although once I mastered the controls (hpf/bass/voicing) I was able to sort the bloom out. The Barefaced cabs do have a deliberately baked in tone and I have yet to partner it with any of my other cabs (Ampeg, Fender, Bergantino) but certainly with the Barefaced cabs I have to dial the bottom back more than I do with say my V4B. Again, I think becoming over-familiar with the controls pays dividends and as ever it boils down to personal taste and no doubt finding the optimal partnering speaker is also important. I certainly do not expect the 800+ to sound exactly like an all tube head, over the years I have come to accept that only an all tube head sounds like an all tube head, but I do believe that if I want to I can get the 800+ close enough so that the average punter can't tell the difference with no FOH support.
Look, you buy an amp because it produces the sounds you want. I often wonder why people complain because "It doesn't sound like amp A or B" - if you want amp A or B then buy one, but IME there is no one amp that will cover every man's taste or situation.
 
#266
Damping is the dissipation or absorption of stored energy, both resonant and mechanical. The higher the damping, the tighter the feel and the lower the damping the looser the feel. Damping interacts with the speaker's impedance to to create this feel that varies with frequency.

So, with low damping there will be less energy absorbed and more energy recycled back into the speaker making it appear louder. The drawback to this is the sloppier sound and feel can easily become intrusive with many of today's desired tones. There are players who like low damping factor amps and those who hate it. No one amp fits all players.
 
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#273
Smallequestrian said:
I think your underestimating the ratio of Shuttles sold to the Streamline. I'd be surprised if the Streamline outsold the Shuttle and not just because the Shuttle came out first.
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Yes, the Shuttle was more popular as it was more "flat response" and probably were more player friendly over a wider range of styles.

The Streamliner was more heavily voiced, and looser, bloomier, a little sloppier on the low end. It suited a several player styles better than the Shuttle's IMO, but not as universally.
 
#274
agedhorse said:
Yes, the Shuttle was more popular as it was more "flat response" and probably were more player friendly over a wider range of styles.

The Streamliner was more heavily voiced, and looser, bloomier, a little sloppier on the low end. It suited a several player styles better than the Shuttle's IMO, but not as universally.
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Exactly - although swapping out the V1 tube in the Streamliner with a high quality 5751 tightens it's low end up a bit - I can get really close to the sound and feel of my Mesa 400 with it after that... The trade-offs are the 400 is obviously less convenient to gig with, but still has a 3D sound quality that the Streamliner can't quite nail - BUT, the Streamliner packs one hell of a punch in that tiny and light package - and has a killer DI...
 
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#275
This thread has got me thinking so I just spent half an hour in my music room annoying the neighbors and comparing my 800+ to my Orange AD200 all tube head. Played through a Barefaced Four 10 and Bergantino NV215, both quality speakers. First point is that both amps had more than enough power to murder either speaker if I kept cranking. Initially the previously mentioned tube "girth" at the bottom was very apparent with the Orange, so I set about seeing how close I could get the 800+ to it. It boiled down again to that much praised hpf knob. I ended up with high pass filter at 11 o'clock, voicing one o'clock, bass two, low mid gain nine and frequency two, high mid gain two and frequency eleven, treble twelve. All o'clocks. Bright and deep on to taste. Crank the input gain and bring up the master so the limiter light flashes and it gets pretty close to the Orange being driven hard. On its initial settings the 800+ sounded a little thin as I had it set up for my lounge, and when I cranked it the sound was more like GK grind than I liked but a little tweaking of the hpf and low mids quickly paid off then pushing it to limiter flash was the icing on the cake. Both speakers potentially had too much power for the cabs if you want a clean tone. Yes, I could probably pick the tube head out in a blind test because I am familiar with both amps but I doubt that my drummer could. Still love the Orange but the Mesa gets so close and has so many other different tones in it. Yes, I definitely could get the "tube girth" thing happening with the Mesa and yes - it is very, very loud. It just keeps on getting louder.
Anyway, there you are. I have always been a tube addict, but I could get the D800+ to sound close enough to the Orange and with weight to it. I certainly could not get the Orange to come up with the huge variety of tone in the Mesa.
But I still loves me my Orange....:D....and my D800+.....:laugh::laugh:
 
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#276
Tim1 said:
This thread has got me thinking so I just spent half an hour in my music room annoying the neighbors and comparing my 800+ to my Orange AD200 all tube head. Played through a Barefaced Four 10 and Bergantino NV215, both quality speakers. First point is that both amps had more than enough power to murder either speaker if I kept cranking. Initially the previously mentioned tube "girth" at the bottom was very apparent with the Orange, so I set about seeing how close I could get the 800+ to it. It boiled down again to that much praised hpf knob. I ended up with high pass filter at 11 o'clock, voicing one o'clock, bass two, low mid gain nine and frequency two, high mid gain two and frequency eleven, treble twelve. All o'clocks. Bright and deep on to taste. Crank the input gain and bring up the master so the limiter light flashes and it gets pretty close to the Orange being driven hard. On its initial settings the 800+ sounded a little thin as I had it set up for my lounge, and when I cranked it the sound was more like GK grind than I liked but a little tweaking of the hpf and low mids quickly paid off then pushing it to limiter flash was the icing on the cake. Both speakers potentially had too much power for the cabs if you want a clean tone. Yes, I could probably pick the tube head out in a blind test because I am familiar with both amps but I doubt that my drummer could. Still love the Orange but the Mesa gets so close and has so many other different tones in it. Yes, I definitely could get the "tube girth" thing happening with the Mesa and yes - it is very, very loud. It just keeps on getting louder.
Anyway, there you are. I have always been a tube addict, but I could get the D800+ to sound close enough to the Orange and with weight to it. I certainly could not get the Orange to come up with the huge variety of tone in the Mesa.
But I still loves me my Orange....:D....and my D800+.....:laugh::laugh:
Click to expand...
I found using he mid volume controls opened a whole new world to the tone shaping abilities of he D-800+. This amp literally can do any tone. When paired with quality 410 cabs I think it shines best.
 
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#278
So you guys are figuring out that the native tighter, extended low frequency response of the Subway amps really is different than most typical (tube) bass amps. This is part of the voicing differences that I was talking about.

Part of the reason, as I suggested earlier, that typical tube amps sound louder for the rated power is because the tube amp is not reproducing the bottom ~1/3 octave that the Subway is. By rolling the HPF up (quite a bit in your case), the power required to develop the SPL is lower, just like a tube amp!!!

(edit for missing word)
 
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#279
agedhorse said:
So you guys are figuring out that the native tighter, extended low frequency response of the Subway amps really is different than most typical bass amps. This is part of the voicing differences that I was talking about.

Part of the reason, as I suggested earlier, that typical tube amps sound louder for the rated power is because the tube amp is not reproducing the bottom ~1/3 octave that the Subway is. By rolling the HPF up (quite a bit in your case), the power required to develop the SPL is lower, just like a tube amp!!!
Click to expand...
This makes a lot of sense to me, one of those light bulb moments actually. Thanks very much, agedhorse.
 
#280
agedhorse said:
So you guys are figuring out that the native tighter, extended low frequency response of the Subway amps really is different than most typical bass amps. This is part of the voicing differences that I was talking about.

Part of the reason, as I suggested earlier, that typical tube amps sound louder for the rated power is because the tube amp is not reproducing the bottom ~1/3 octave that the Subway is. By rolling the HPF up (quite a bit in your case), the power required to develop the SPL is lower, just like a tube amp!!!
Click to expand...
The D-800+ is the most versatile amp ever produced. How your going to top it is my question.
 
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