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Best max speaker area/min weight & cost cab options?

Nev375

Nev375

Nov 2, 2010
10,569
18,045
Missouri
#1
Just wondering where the sweet spot is between these factors. (in general, of course)

Seems to me that 410s are great, but the magnet weight of 4 drivers starts making things heavy.

A compact 115 is on the other end of the spectum but a single driver capable of handling lots of power starts getting pricey. A 215 brings better power handling, but the cab itself starts getting unwieldy.

Of course the logical solution to that is to stack smaller cabs, but That's just adding the weight of two additional side panels. Besides a handlebar/dolly cab is easier to move.... until you hit stairs. (sigh)

The logical compromise seems to be the 212, or at least a 2-something. But is it?


Are there any engineers here that have analyzed this from an efficiency of weight/materials vs movement of air point of view?

What is the optimum efficient configuration? (targetting a one-cab, one amp, one human setup with an eye on the ergonomics of the human carrying the cab alone without any additional equipment)

Does it already exist?
_____
Apologies for not being able to simplify the question further.
 
#2
The old saying is "Deep bass, loud volume, small size - pick any two." I think you're asking what's the optimal tradeoff between those three variables. There is no unique answer, because everyone assigns a different relative value to those three.

To me, the place to start is by asking how much volume I really need for the gigs I actually have - not the gigs I wish I had, or the ones I think I might have in a year or two, but the ones I actually have. From there, what are the smallest and lightest cabs that will do the job? The fourth variable to consider is the price. The cabs that sound good and are loud for their size tend to be more expensive.
 
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#4
Jim Nazium said:
The old saying is "Deep bass, loud volume, small size - pick any two." I think you're asking what's the optimal tradeoff between those three variables. There is no unique answer, because everyone assigns a different relative value to those three.

To me, the place to start is by asking how much volume I really need for the gigs I actually have - not the gigs I wish I had, or the ones I think I might have in a year or two, but the ones I actually have. From there, what are the smallest and lightest cabs that will do the job? The fourth variable to consider is the price. The cabs that sound good and are loud for their size tend to be more expensive.
Click to expand...


Not exactly what I'm asking. Deepness is a matter of overall cab design, not speaker size. Volume is mostly a matter of the efficiency and excursion capabilities of the drivers, in addition to the total speaker cone area. Like you said, all of those are variables.

Also, I'm not looking for a small cab per-se, just one that is easy to move for the average human being. In fact, bigger is better up to a point. You get your sound a little closer to your ears and your amp controlls closer to your eyes and hands. A vertical aligned 410 cab ought to be perfect for that... but it gets kinda top heavy and unweildy and again... 4 speaker magnets vs 1 or 2 larger, but overall lighter configurations in a 212/115.
 
#5
Jim Nazium said:
The old saying is "Deep bass, loud volume, small size - pick any two." I think you're asking what's the optimal tradeoff between those three variables. There is no unique answer, because everyone assigns a different relative value to those three.
Click to expand...

No, this is wrong, but often repeated here!
It is enclosure size, bass extension and SENSITIVITY, not volume!

Typically, a 12" car subwoofer will have a very compact box, an extra bass octave of extension compared to an electrical bass cab and go as loud. The "problem" / flipside is that it might need five or TEN times the power to do the job.
The long and heavy voice coil of such a "true sub" will seriously hurt mid range performance, too.
 
#6
Remember that it's not just the surface area of the cones, it's about how much air they will move...and if they don't pump in and out they won't move any. So you really need to consider the maximum excursion (xmax) of the drivers which, multiplied by the surface area will give you the volume displacement (Vd) of the air that a given driver can shift. It is entirely possible that a high excursion 10" driver will be able to pump as much air as a low excursion 15.

You then have to consider the efficiency of the driver. Some drivers are relatively inefficient so will take more power to produce the same sound pressure level (spl). Power is cheap these days so if you have a thumping great amp, efficiency may not be your greatest concern.

Then there are cab design considerations and everything is a compromise, but TBH, in terms of optimum performance, size, weight and efficiency, something like the Barefaced Big Twin II is hard to beat.
 
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#7
Jools4001 said:
Remember that it's not just the surface area of the cones, it's about how much air they will move...and if they don't pump in and out they won't move any. So you really need to consider the maximum excursion (xmax) of the drivers which, multiplied by the surface area will give you the volume displacement (Vd) of the air that a given driver can shift. It is entirely possible that a high excursion 10" driver will be able to pump as much air as a low excursion 15.

You then have to consider the efficiency of the driver. Some drivers are relatively inefficient so will take more power to produce the same sound pressure level (spl). Power is cheap these days so if you have a thumping great amp, efficiency may not be your greatest concern.

Then there are cab design considerations and everything is a compromise, but TBH, in terms of optimum performance, size, weight and efficiency, something like the Barefaced Big Twin II is hard to beat.
Click to expand...

Sure, but excursion and efficiency scales along with price. All things being equal any given 15 is louder than a 10 of the same exact type.

Barefaced does indeed make some nice lightweight cabs
but at 49lbs, why not go for the super 15? Other than it isn't available anymore?
 
#12
Linnin said:
That is the old saying. The new saying is Fender Rumble. You can also add affordable to that and have deep; loud, small, and light. With sound quality that rivals competitors that cost four times as much.
Click to expand...

The new fender stuff is fantastic for what it is, but it in no way competes with something like the F115 in terms of volume or depth of tone.
 
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#14
Was using Hartke XL cabs, got tired of the weight. Acquired a GK 212 Neo last year and a pair of 115 Neos more recently. The 50 lb 212 is loud, goes deep and fills most rooms we play in. The 115s are 40 lbs each, and the two together bring hifi floor-shaking thunder with my SVT3Pro or HA5500 amps. I'm very impressed with these cabs.
 
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#15
lomo said:
I agree new Rumbles are great, especially for the price, but IME they do not compete with most of what is available at "4 times the price" .
Click to expand...

+1

The rumble 115 is $300 on MF's site. IMHO you would need two of those to come close to the output of a $1100 F115. You would still be giving up on low end extension, and carrying an extra 40 pounds of cab. Worth the price difference? Depends on what the true goals are.
 
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#16
Nev375 said:
Just wondering where the sweet spot is between these factors. (in general, of course)

Seems to me that 410s are great, but the magnet weight of 4 drivers starts making things heavy.

A compact 115 is on the other end of the spectum but a single driver capable of handling lots of power starts getting pricey. A 215 brings better power handling, but the cab itself starts getting unwieldy.

Of course the logical solution to that is to stack smaller cabs, but That's just adding the weight of two additional side panels. Besides a handlebar/dolly cab is easier to move.... until you hit stairs. (sigh)

The logical compromise seems to be the 212, or at least a 2-something. But is it?


Are there any engineers here that have analyzed this from an efficiency of weight/materials vs movement of air point of view?

What is the optimum efficient configuration? (targetting a one-cab, one amp, one human setup with an eye on the ergonomics of the human carrying the cab alone without any additional equipment)

Does it already exist?
_____
Apologies for not being able to simplify the question further.
Click to expand...

I prefer 410 and 212 sized cabs. To me they are the easiest to move because they roll better. The only time I lift my cab is in and out of the car and onto the stage if the stage doesn't have a ramp.

You can put wheels on a 210 or 112 but it's so short your going to be kicking it around like a soccer ball. I'm not a fan of deadlifting cabs from the car to the stage even if they are small cabs.

Slightly bigger cabs like 610s often only have 2 wheels and it's a bit akward for me being 6' tall to tilt and roll them but for shorter folks they might be fine.

With my 410 I can stack my rack on top of the cab and my pedalboard on top of the rack and roll everything together. I gigged with an ampeg 810 for a decade. Biggest problem with big cabs like the 810 or 412 is transporting them. The craziest way I've moved a cab was a 610 laying down accross the back seat of a 2 door Chevy cavalier. An 810 will not fit in a lot of cars though. To make up for volume after going from an 810 to a 410 I found upgrading the speakers is the solution to get more clean volume out of a smaller cab. The speakers that come in production cabs are not the best. Particularly ampeg cabs as they are essentially based on a design that's decades old. This is why greenboy,fearful, and fearless cabs are so popular. Because the designs call for better speakers than you get in production cabs. My 410 is violently loud if I need it to be for an outdoor gig. I'm asked to turn down my stage volume basically every gig I play which is funny because I play hard rock and often share the stage with other bands who still use 810s
 
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#17
I've used quite a few cab configs over the years, 410's, 115's, 215's, 412's and a few others. IMO I'm now using the best. . . 2 112 Barefaced Super Compacts and a Berg CN212.

These cabs are not a compromise in any shape or form.
 
#18
IME the most ergonomic setup in terms of portability without sonic compromise is my berg CN210. At about 35 lbs with recessed side handles and vertical orientation it's a cinch to lift and carry with one hand or 2 and ridiculously light without being a lunch box. I don't need 410 volume, but if I did, 2 of these stacked would be the ticket, or a CN112 on top. In contrast, my GB NX2-112 112s are the same weight, but have a single top handle and are nowhere near as ergonomic to lift and carry.
 
#19
Whenever someone really nails it with a cab design that will put out a lot more than the weight and measurements suggest, these do not sell cheaply. Either you pay a lot or you schlep a lot. My barefaced one10 easily competes with most 112 cabs out there. At 7kgs (15lbs).
The Greenboy designs should be a hint towards what is possible. It seems they pretty much exhaust what's possible.
Again - the components alone are as expensive as the cabs of other brands.
 
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#20
Linnin said:
That is the old saying. The new saying is Fender Rumble. You can also add affordable to that and have deep; loud, small, and light. With sound quality that rivals competitors that cost four times as much.
Click to expand...

I have been away from the Amps and Cabs section for a while, but I see things don't change much ;)

I am very happy with my Fender Rumble, but I would definately swap it for a Barefaced Cab and lightweight amp at 4 times the price, if I had 4 times the budget!
 
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