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Big E Speakers Part 4 - Quadraphenia
- Thread starter kesslari
- Start date
If the demons arent strated properly, it could lead to a low power situation and damage lesser speaker designs.
Oh now that i've had my coffee and read your post again I think I understand it Jeff Bonny.
Just had a nice bass chat with Mike. The new amp is amazing people and winning awards. 
My sub should be shipping out Monday - sooner than I expected! He explained that when engaging the phase switch on a Flex cab, you are putting the mid/high section out of phase with the woofer(s), which makes complete sense. 
My sub should be shipping out Monday - sooner than I expected! He explained that when engaging the phase switch on a Flex cab, you are putting the mid/high section out of phase with the woofer(s), which makes complete sense.
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Just had a nice bass chat with Mike. The new amp is amazing people and winning awards.
I spoke with Mike this morning about the MAS109 he's building for me. Mine's coming sooner than I expected too considering all he has on his plate. It's such a pleasure to deal with someone who is not only a great tech and can give you that perspective but is also a great player and can talk about the cab on a deeply musical level too. This cat is on his game.
If you haven't experienced Mike's cabs 'in person' - you're in for a jaw-dropping, ear-opening experience.
Every now and again you run into something that gets overwhelmingly stupendous reviews from a variety of believable people and after a point it becomes difficult to ignore. I don't doubt for a nanosecond that this cab will be extraordinary.
I cover a 5 piece blues band in all venues with my 1st gen 109. Thee best upright cab I've tried. The slab bass doesn't suck either! GAS at a high level for the MAS special. Not sure if I should sell the MA109 or not. Mike said they will play nice with each other...
Sounds like a killer combo to me! I'm looking forward to manipulating the vortex with two 10's when my sub lands.
"Thee best upright cab" and you're thinking of selling it? Sounds like a bad idea.
That aside I'm curious what amp(s) are you using?
A MAS109 just might be all the cab I'll ever need. That would be the only reason to part with the MA109. But both together might be too much fun...I have the amp to run that combo. I run a Genz Benz shuttlemax 9.2, awesome doubler with the 2 channels.
One on each side of the kit!
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Hey, gang--
If anybody would be interested in a used MAS 112 (Faital woofer) with a Studio Slips cover, I have one for sale. Link is below this post.
(Bought a new car; need to pay down the principal on the loan...)
If anybody would be interested in a used MAS 112 (Faital woofer) with a Studio Slips cover, I have one for sale. Link is below this post.
(Bought a new car; need to pay down the principal on the loan...)
Just read this and... I have no idea.Okay, I admit to being a little slow. It's been a couple of weeks since I commissioned a 110 Sub with Mike, and the question that I didn't ask at the time finally occurred to me - how will the out of phase setting work? I like it for thinning out the low end on my Flex 110's. Unless I'm mistaken, flipping the switch to put the internal 10 out of phase with the mid/high section would still leave the sub in phase. I'm wondering if the 'thinning' effect will be less pronounced. I'm also wondering if a phase switch on the sub would be a good idea. Beuller?
I would guess -- and it's only a guess -- that the switch would change the phase of the mid/high section and leave the 10 alone. If that's the case, I'd think both 10s would be in-phase with each other when using the sub, but out of phase with the top. I could be wrong -- no idea how the switch works on a technical level.
Update:
Took the 46+sub on a couple of outings, including one where I played it back-and-forth with the 18 Sound MAS 112. (I talk about it some here: 1)Dispersion 2)Efficiency 3)Size.) Both were at a fairly loud jam at a local club, so I got to hear other players on both rigs. Arkham Zephyr --> Lab Gruppen fp 2200 running parallel mono --> 46+sub on one channel, 112 on the other. Chose this setup partly because it allowed for changes between cabs without disrupting the jam (turn one channel down, the other up -- switched cabs every song or two). I was lucky, on the first outing, that four other bass players -- all capable players -- showed up. I chatted with all of them and we discussed what we heard and their playing impressions through the night. There was a variety of music played, but most of it in the funk/R&B/hip-hop vein -- some blues and some rock thrown in.
I've played out with the 112, the Flex top, Flex top + sub, and the 46, but not the 46 with the sub before last week. I like things about all the cabs, but have always felt that the 112 was the most "me". Slightly mid-forward, deep but unhyped lows, and a brutal note-envelope -- very responsive to and revealing of technique. The 46 was nice -- even more clear up top and when playing harmonics than the 112 (more clear with recorded music, too), still articulate, and goes even deeper -- but it didn't have the brutal kick of the 112, was more romantically voiced, and had a rounder envelope -- still very responsive, but felt pretty different then the 112. Playing it at home with the sub, there was noticeably more thickness and pop, but I still felt more at home with the 112.
At the jam, though, holy cow. The 46 with the sub is a different cab. The sound is HUGE -- no, wait, HYOOOGE -- and the yin-yang between the two cabs is real. The 112 was still able to get more than loud enough to cover the club without PA support (played most of the night with a little boost from the PA, but took it out of the PA entirely for the last half-hour) and sounded good -- covered the house well and got positive feedback from musicians in the audience -- but the 46+sub just seemed to fill out this particular mix a little better. Lots of pop -- kind of a relaxed bass-drum feel as opposed to the hard kick of the 112 -- that seemed to suit this style of music more. Smoother, sweeter, slightly more relaxed mids, a bit more snap at the very top, a little deeper, rounder bottom. You know those rubber-bandy, twisty, R&B lines, where things sound vocal -- almost like the bass has no frets -- in how one note bends into another? Those were easier to pull off on the 46+sub. With the 112, every note was almost-too-clearly delineated (for that style).
Even with the Zephyr's fairly simple EQ, I was able to get both cabs fairly close tonally -- there's a bit more deep extension with the 46+sub and the quality of the mids was a bit different -- but, still, closer than I'd have thought. The note envelope and the feel, though, you can't EQ in. I'd still say that the 112 is more "me" the way I typically conceptualize my sound but that night, for that music, I'd have to give the edge to the 46+sub. Three of the four other bass players felt the same way, two by a significant margin. One was torn, and one preferred the 112 -- both of them, interestingly enough, felt that the 112 had more bass (whereas I heard the 46+sub as being both more bassy and deeper). I think this is because of the way the 112 articulates down low, with that hard kick as opposed to a round burp. That was the thing that swayed the torn guy to the 46+sub, and the thing that the guy who picked the 112 liked -- he dug the direct, strong presentation. I was torn, but, as I said, ended up going for the 46+sub. A different night, with a different amp, a different style of music, I might have gone the other way. One thing that I could have tried but didn't think to at the time -- I ran the mids on the 112 in the "hot" position. I always run them that way. There is a "mild" position and, on my cab (since I like adding switches to things) an "off" position. That might've yielded a voice more suited to the music being played (though, again, the envelope would've remained substantially the same).
Last night, I took the 46+sub out with the GBE 1200, my "old faithful" amp. That amp with that stack is a hammer -- covered the club with no PA support and the volume maybe at 10:00 -- but for some reason I didn't like it as well with the stack as I have with my 112. Seemed to reveal a bit of brittleness in the upper mids. Still, a good sound overall. Still got compliments.
More generally, taking the MAS cabs out to that jam after playing on the house rig (which is not a bad rig) for awhile I was struck by how extraordinarily well they work in a live mix. The dynamics, clarity, detail, and fullness (especially of the 46+sub), was just on another level. I'd forgotten. Easier to play, more fun to listen to (and, yes, people danced). Blended well with the PA when in the PA, covered the house well when not.
Note on EQing the 46, based on convo with Mike and messing about between jam 1 and jam 2: A little cut @ ~180 Hz leans out the bass and brings it more in line, that way, with the MAS 112 (or the MAS 109). Maybe a bit at ~500 Hz, too, though I didn't find that necessary.
Transport/setup between the two... depends. The modularity of two smaller cabs is appealing (and both go in the back of the car without needing to fold seats down, unlike the 112), but in this case the 112 (one cab, goes on the floor) would've been easier than the 46+sub (two cabs and something to set them on, since they work better elevated). Then again, the 112 is too big for some stuff. 112 is narrower... If I did start using a two cab setup regularly, I'd probably invest in a folding cart. 46+sub = MAS 1200 VOG... if someone thought they'd dig the 46+sub but would always use them together, having them in one cab might make more sense.
That's all for now.
Took the 46+sub on a couple of outings, including one where I played it back-and-forth with the 18 Sound MAS 112. (I talk about it some here: 1)Dispersion 2)Efficiency 3)Size.) Both were at a fairly loud jam at a local club, so I got to hear other players on both rigs. Arkham Zephyr --> Lab Gruppen fp 2200 running parallel mono --> 46+sub on one channel, 112 on the other. Chose this setup partly because it allowed for changes between cabs without disrupting the jam (turn one channel down, the other up -- switched cabs every song or two). I was lucky, on the first outing, that four other bass players -- all capable players -- showed up. I chatted with all of them and we discussed what we heard and their playing impressions through the night. There was a variety of music played, but most of it in the funk/R&B/hip-hop vein -- some blues and some rock thrown in.
I've played out with the 112, the Flex top, Flex top + sub, and the 46, but not the 46 with the sub before last week. I like things about all the cabs, but have always felt that the 112 was the most "me". Slightly mid-forward, deep but unhyped lows, and a brutal note-envelope -- very responsive to and revealing of technique. The 46 was nice -- even more clear up top and when playing harmonics than the 112 (more clear with recorded music, too), still articulate, and goes even deeper -- but it didn't have the brutal kick of the 112, was more romantically voiced, and had a rounder envelope -- still very responsive, but felt pretty different then the 112. Playing it at home with the sub, there was noticeably more thickness and pop, but I still felt more at home with the 112.
At the jam, though, holy cow. The 46 with the sub is a different cab. The sound is HUGE -- no, wait, HYOOOGE -- and the yin-yang between the two cabs is real. The 112 was still able to get more than loud enough to cover the club without PA support (played most of the night with a little boost from the PA, but took it out of the PA entirely for the last half-hour) and sounded good -- covered the house well and got positive feedback from musicians in the audience -- but the 46+sub just seemed to fill out this particular mix a little better. Lots of pop -- kind of a relaxed bass-drum feel as opposed to the hard kick of the 112 -- that seemed to suit this style of music more. Smoother, sweeter, slightly more relaxed mids, a bit more snap at the very top, a little deeper, rounder bottom. You know those rubber-bandy, twisty, R&B lines, where things sound vocal -- almost like the bass has no frets -- in how one note bends into another? Those were easier to pull off on the 46+sub. With the 112, every note was almost-too-clearly delineated (for that style).
Even with the Zephyr's fairly simple EQ, I was able to get both cabs fairly close tonally -- there's a bit more deep extension with the 46+sub and the quality of the mids was a bit different -- but, still, closer than I'd have thought. The note envelope and the feel, though, you can't EQ in. I'd still say that the 112 is more "me" the way I typically conceptualize my sound but that night, for that music, I'd have to give the edge to the 46+sub. Three of the four other bass players felt the same way, two by a significant margin. One was torn, and one preferred the 112 -- both of them, interestingly enough, felt that the 112 had more bass (whereas I heard the 46+sub as being both more bassy and deeper). I think this is because of the way the 112 articulates down low, with that hard kick as opposed to a round burp. That was the thing that swayed the torn guy to the 46+sub, and the thing that the guy who picked the 112 liked -- he dug the direct, strong presentation. I was torn, but, as I said, ended up going for the 46+sub. A different night, with a different amp, a different style of music, I might have gone the other way. One thing that I could have tried but didn't think to at the time -- I ran the mids on the 112 in the "hot" position. I always run them that way. There is a "mild" position and, on my cab (since I like adding switches to things) an "off" position. That might've yielded a voice more suited to the music being played (though, again, the envelope would've remained substantially the same).
Last night, I took the 46+sub out with the GBE 1200, my "old faithful" amp. That amp with that stack is a hammer -- covered the club with no PA support and the volume maybe at 10:00 -- but for some reason I didn't like it as well with the stack as I have with my 112. Seemed to reveal a bit of brittleness in the upper mids. Still, a good sound overall. Still got compliments.
More generally, taking the MAS cabs out to that jam after playing on the house rig (which is not a bad rig) for awhile I was struck by how extraordinarily well they work in a live mix. The dynamics, clarity, detail, and fullness (especially of the 46+sub), was just on another level. I'd forgotten. Easier to play, more fun to listen to (and, yes, people danced). Blended well with the PA when in the PA, covered the house well when not.
Note on EQing the 46, based on convo with Mike and messing about between jam 1 and jam 2: A little cut @ ~180 Hz leans out the bass and brings it more in line, that way, with the MAS 112 (or the MAS 109). Maybe a bit at ~500 Hz, too, though I didn't find that necessary.
Transport/setup between the two... depends. The modularity of two smaller cabs is appealing (and both go in the back of the car without needing to fold seats down, unlike the 112), but in this case the 112 (one cab, goes on the floor) would've been easier than the 46+sub (two cabs and something to set them on, since they work better elevated). Then again, the 112 is too big for some stuff. 112 is narrower... If I did start using a two cab setup regularly, I'd probably invest in a folding cart. 46+sub = MAS 1200 VOG... if someone thought they'd dig the 46+sub but would always use them together, having them in one cab might make more sense.
That's all for now.
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Your guess is correct, Mark. Mike said that the phase switch puts the mid/tweet section out of phase with the internal woofer and with the sub when (when plugged in). Now if he would ship it out, I'm ready to un-box it and break it in...
- Apr 29, 2003
- 9,077
- 9,798
- Disclosures
- Contributor- Bass Musician Magazine | Marketing Manager- Trickfish Amplification
Great post mark as always!
I can comment on the effect of the phase switch but not the specifications of it. I use it in rooms that are boomy or have weird bass feedback things going on. It tends to lean out the lowend, while leaving the midrange and treble intact. Very very useful in problematic rooms, but that's the only time I use it. I also almost never use the two middle switches, but I find the tweeter switch to be super useful. Turning off the tweeters, and increasing the treble on my instrument or amp gives it a very nice, very different envelope up high. It's almost like a different rig. For finger style it works beautifully, for more percussive for slap stuff, those tweeters are magical!
I can comment on the effect of the phase switch but not the specifications of it. I use it in rooms that are boomy or have weird bass feedback things going on. It tends to lean out the lowend, while leaving the midrange and treble intact. Very very useful in problematic rooms, but that's the only time I use it. I also almost never use the two middle switches, but I find the tweeter switch to be super useful. Turning off the tweeters, and increasing the treble on my instrument or amp gives it a very nice, very different envelope up high. It's almost like a different rig. For finger style it works beautifully, for more percussive for slap stuff, those tweeters are magical!
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The flexibility offered by the control switches has me spoiled and completely satisfied with the Flex. I usually run in the "dark" setting with the two switches in the down position and the tweeter off (my Dingwall basses are bright). I recently put Dunlop flats on my precision. When I played it through the rig this past Sunday, I found tonal perfection with the tweeter off, phase out, and both mid switches up. I have been known to exaggerate on occasion, but seriously folks, it was perfection!
- Apr 29, 2003
- 9,077
- 9,798
- Disclosures
- Contributor- Bass Musician Magazine | Marketing Manager- Trickfish Amplification
Man, the P bass with flats (or tapes) sounds amazing through the flex. Those mids...
