Big E Speakers Part 4 - Quadraphenia

[Kirk Bryant]

I have too many pairs of shoes too, haha and 22-23 basses not sure right now. But I'd really like a state of the art one cab solution. Also I don't plan to sell all my Bergs right away and really I'm a couple of generations behind the time there too. I'm still back on AE's I have a 112 and a 212 and they are great and I didn't feel the need to get the CN's or the newest HDN gen. Not that I wouldn't like a few less pounds to haul around. But I have a Schroeder 410 I can hardly give away, a Schroeder 15L I may keep and a couple of older Berg EX 112 ceramics that I've used for real workhorses for years that I could let go to get one new cab. I just sold a couple of Aggie 112's but that went to other expenses. So you know I'm just really an inveterate tinkerer. Truthfully these cabs are on the upper edge of my self imposed weight limit. I just don't want to schlep any single 50 lb plus cab.
Also you can see by my profile I don't sell much of anything though I should. I'm just not a flipper, usually when I get something it gets gigged long and hard.

 

[mntngrown]

Glad you found them useful! That was a Zoom Q8, btw, recorded using a combination of the stereo shotgun mic capsule and also a Rode M3 aimed at the cab(s). I definitely agree that they each had their own flavor, and at various points, I found myself calling each one my "favorite." I think the 110 probably had my preference the majority of the time, though, and two of them are a wonderful thing!

 

[mntngrown]

i am not the sharpest tool in the shed, nor the pro bassist with the most impressive lineage etc. The impressive evidence to me is MA was/is a world touring bassist. Google will inform you. Then Tom Bowlus with a bass magazine integrity to maintain awards a best of show. These cabs are the real deal. Play one once in a venue. The best! I am not an endorsing artist. There are no endorsing artists to my knowledge. Why? No pimps needed.

 

[mntngrown]

I have too many pairs of shoes too, haha and 22-23 basses not sure right now. But I'd really like a state of the art one cab solution. Also I don't plan to sell all my Bergs right away and really I'm a couple of generations behind the time there too. I'm still back on AE's I have a 112 and a 212 and they are great and I didn't feel the need to get the CN's or the newest HDN gen. Not that I wouldn't like a few less pounds to haul around. But I have a Schroeder 410 I can hardly give away, a Schroeder 15L I may keep and a couple of older Berg EX 112 ceramics that I've used for real workhorses for years that I could let go to get one new cab. I just sold a couple of Aggie 112's but that went to other expenses. So you know I'm just really an inveterate tinkerer. Truthfully these cabs are on the upper edge of my self imposed weight limit. I just don't want to schlep any single 50 lb plus cab.
Also you can see by my profile I don't sell much of anything though I should. I'm just not a flipper, usually when I get something it gets gigged long and hard.

I see you are gigging a lot so your herd and your GAS are fine. I gig once a month on average. Thinning the equipment load

 

[Kirk Bryant]

Hey mntngrown, I'm hopeing to get back down there in a couple of months. I have a lot of friends in the so. Bay and you probably know some of them. I played a lot with Dave Price, Dave Gonzales, Burnin' Vernon, a lot of blues guys and some of the local Jazz guys.
I'll try to look you up when I come down as I need to find a time and place to experience the multi wave vortexitudiness with some of you guys.

 

[mntngrown]

Hey mntngrown, I'm hopeing to get back down there in a couple of months. I have a lot of friends in the so. Bay and you probably know some of them. I played a lot with Dave Price, Dave Gonzales, Burnin' Vernon, a lot of blues guys and some of the local Jazz guys.
I'll try to look you up when I come down as I need to find a time and place to experience the multi wave vortexitudiness with some of you guys.

Yeah, hopefully someone will be giggin theirs when you are down this way. Post up when you are headed our way.

 

[coyoteboy]

Yeah, hopefully someone will be giggin theirs when you are down this way. Post up when you are headed our way.

I think you misspelled "South Bay MAS GTG."

 

[Kirk Bryant]

I'm guessing some of you guys have moved from Fearless/full cabs to MAS. Can someone please compare and contrast the differences, similarities etc. as I've contemplated trying an F cab as well.

 

[mntngrown]

I'm guessing some of you guys have moved from Fearless/full cabs to MAS. Can someone please compare and contrast the differences, similarities etc. as I've contemplated trying an F cab as well.

sure. I bought a LDS 1515/66 nEarful and later built a 1515/66 fEarful. Great cabs. You would enjoy one I am sure. Greenboy is a hero for putting the plans out for free. Mike built them for awhile. I just like my BigE dispersion experience better, And I like the mids better. I have no experience with the newer Greenboy designs so can't compare. Check out all you can.

 

[thumbs&fingers]

They are not very camparable. The fearful' performance will differ depending on which driver and where crossover points will be relative to the speaker. I owned a few fearful and fearless in the past, I like them better than what most of GC and other retailers carry. I think the bergamtinos had a better overall sound neo's and sealed. The fearless sounded very raw to me with a definite. Bass and hi's. The original MAS cabinets where very 3D like a component system due to a really complex crossover and specific drivers to accomplish that. The MAS cabs are in a whole other universe than anything. They are more like a high end monitor, with a 3D dispersion no matter where your standing around cab. The newest MAS cabs you can play smooth jazz or r&b recorded music and hear every nuance clear and balanced. You can not get that from a fearlful or most retail bass guitar cabs. There's no mud from MAS cab provided the sound is from a good source. You have to play a MAS cabinet to really hear and feel the differences, and if you due- bring Any can you want to compare it to and test them side by side. The results will speak for themselves, My 2cents.

 

[Snaxster]

I'm guessing some of you guys have moved from Fearless/full cabs to MAS. Can someone please compare and contrast the differences, similarities etc. as I've contemplated trying an F cab as well.

Kirk, my only firsthand experience with the two designers' work is playing my MAS-112 and F112 cabinets. I never played any Fearful or any other MAS.

To qualify that: as I understand it,

• the F112 is wholly representative of the Fearless line; that is, they all sound basically the same, differing only in output capacity

• the MAS-112, though it shares sonic traits with other MAS models, differs from them in its being Mike's “take on an all-out electric bass cabinet.” Indeed, the sound of the MAS-112 model itself is variable since it can feature a few rather different-sounding/feeling woofers and the option of a tweeter (which optionally can be switchable).

Here below are some of my first impressions of the MAS-112 and F112. Though only some five and four months ago, respectively, now I have a much better sense of each cabinet; of what characterizes each, of how I would use them if I were a working musician again (because I haven't worked or gigged for years, as you may know), etc. For example, I believe that I would like a vertical stack of two F112s better than a single F112 in any orientation (horizontal, vertical, or wedge), and I now I know better when I would or wouldn't use the MAS-112 mid boost or tweeter (never both for me).

As I wrote Mike Arnopol:

“Though I have yet to play it loud, I hear this from the MAS-112: open, up close, very detailed, clear, immediate, sweet, unflinching, powerful but relaxed. The detail and dynamics bear out your and MarkA’s accounts of minimal note overhang. The MAS-112 is not cold, but it is merciless.

I know that this cabinet sounds like something, but it’s hard to believe since it sounds so honest and open. It’s like a big studio monitor with soul. For real.

The mid boost is a good option. A character changer, it is not needed for this cabinet to sing. Similarly, I’m glad I asked for the tweeter, but also for its switch. The MAS-112’s range and response without the tweeter are so wide that adding it imparts only a slight sheen; it is meaningful and is musical, but not necessary. Impressive is how seamless the crossover is between all the drivers, including the tweeter. Is that Duke’s work? Great stuff.

That’s at first blush. I can’t wait to play delay-based processing and all through this cabinet. And to play it loud. And with an arrangement. And so on.”​

Yesterday and again just now I played bass guitar through my MAS-112 with a rather warm and dynamic overdrive into slightly wow-y digi-tape echo mixed in at about 35%. Think old Eno-esque, moody chord fragments in simple changes; lots of space, harmonics glowing from sustained notes and splintering away as fingers move from and to frets; wooly organ bass under hints of melody escaping during movement between sustained chords.

Doing this today, finally settled into a pocket, playing that same music throughout, I engaged the MAS-112's tweeter and played; then I disengaged the tweeter and engaged the mid boost and played. Overwhelmingly I preferred the tweeter for these textures, hearing it emphasize the spatial, dimensional quality, whereas the mid boost made the space seem busy and smaller.

Particularly with the tweeter, the MAS-112 sounded quite big, clear and hall-like presenting these textures. Once again, very impressive.

Though I still have yet to play it at truly loud volumes, the harder I hit the MAS-112 with the amp, the better it sounds.

Here's what I wrote Don about playing my F112 for the first time:

“The sound of the F112? You’ve heard all the descriptions, I’m sure, as well as formed your own opinion. To me, at moderate volumes, I verified at least what Ed Friedland said about this model, that it faithfully presents any source it is given, without imposing its own voice. Playing two Fender Custom Shop basses, 1. a Precision Bass configured à la late 1950s and 2. a Jazz Bass with roundwound strings, and with pickups I attribute to 1966 Fender make, your F112 truly let each sound like itself. Likewise headroom: though I never pushed the F112, the more power I gave it, the more powerful it sounded; but its basic voice did not change, and it never lost composure.

The F112 sounds tight, present, and nuanced. And what nuance, particularly in harmonic content. Sustained chords on the Jazz Bass were tamboura- or harpsichord-like. Compared to itself or a conventional cabinet, the F112 sounds quite open in that there is no boxiness to its sound, none, either on or off axis. Excellent dispersion, too, speaking of off axis. But compared to my MA Soundworks MAS-112 (with custom Eminence woofer and switchable B&C tweeter), the F112 sounded less open and had less evident low end extension. By comparison, the MAS-112 sounded romantic (to use a descriptor I got from Michael Arnopol) to the F112 sounding honest. Two flavors of wonderful, and exactly the difference I wanted. Each cabinet is quite revealing, leaving little for the player to hide behind sonically; but the F112 goes furthest in that direction.

My amp was a Kern preamp with vintage tubes, an [sfx] Micro Thumpinator HPF, and a QSC PLX-1804 amplifier.”​

Pending me hearing this F112 played loud, I am convinced that it is a complete *** kicker. A gentleman warrior, refined yet deadly, also it punches far above its some 34 pound weight. And it is beautiful to see, a real delight.

 

[kesslari]

Others have been more eloquent.
My description is simple.
I had a fEarful. I liked it more than most. Good cab.
Ultimately, it didn't do it for me, and I sold it to keep looking.
I got a MAS cab. A pair, actually. I'm done looking. I have never played through, nor heard, anything better.
Period.
(I use it as the rig for a monthly jam night where I'm the house bassist, so I get to listen to a lot of others play through it.)
Physical, "body-pounding" lows with absolutely clear mids, as grindy as I want to make them, and sparkle. And dispersion that I've never, ever experienced.

 

[Kirk Bryant]

Good stuff guys I really appreciate this and would like to hear more. I also wonder if any of you have compared the MAS cabs to any Audiokenisis cabs. I've read so many good things about them I'm wondering if a there are similarities in the AK vs F type and/or perhaps MAS vs Hathors.

 

[spiritbass]

I have to agree with @thumbs&fingers - it is hard to compare MAS/MVW cabs with conventional ones. One aspect that has not been mentioned is that due to the way the sound energy is handled/dispersed, MVW cabs are less susceptible to room nodes. They can make you sound better than any conventional cab in 'sonic nightmare' environments. After I purchased a 110 sub to compliment my Flex 110, I have experienced zero cab GAS. Kudos to Mike for saving me a whole lot of money. To repeat myself for the umpteenth time, I never tire of sounding this good!

 

[mntngrown]

Good stuff guys I really appreciate this and would like to hear more. I also wonder if any of you have compared the MAS cabs to any Audiokenisis cabs. I've read so many good things about them I'm wondering if a there are similarities in the AK vs F type and/or perhaps MAS vs Hathors.

So as I understand the history, BigE and Stephen Regier developed and eventually patented the MVW technology. They sought out builders and talented folks like Duke and Leland and Mike. All 3 eventually checked out the prototypes and got on board at some level.
Duke,(Audiokenisis).has been a significant adviser in BigE speaker development. He was going to be the home theater branch builder as I originally understood the info. I have heard at the bay area gtg at least one of his cabs. They are great. What you are getting with MAS is the design from the BigE guys with development input from the brain trust of Duke Leland and Mike. But Mas is the only MVW bass cab option. Do you need it? Of course not. A guitar player I play with once in awhile said my little 4x6 MAS sounded way better in the same club as a full SVT rig with 8x10. Yes it did IMHO. There is at least one member on this thread that owns both. He may chime in. The thing about BigE MAS is the vortex dispersion. If you just want punch wile you stand in front of a cab you don't need anything new.

 

[MrBEAR]

I was a brave soul today and crossed the Illinois border for a visit to the Soundworks.

Mike was gracious enough to entertain me with the new Bodai lineup, minus the 112. Got to listen and play through the Tantra, with Mike doing the dial twiddling factor.

My first generation MAS 112 LPT came home for some fine tuning. Tried a Tim Sieser (sp?) V string lined fretless with a coil splits switch and volume only and we messed with the Baby Sumo power amp I just acquired as well.

Short version of a short visit, as I had another stop to make, is that I was Very Impressed with the Bodai's I got to hear and play through.

Questions asked and answered, impressions shared, it did not take long to figure out where this audition would be leading me.

Stay tuned to this thread and probably the TB Classifieds.

I really have to think this over before I say anymore though.

There is, at this point, a no contest, hands down favorite that produced a huge, eyes closed listening, .

 

[mntngrown]

Wow, can't wait to hear your fave!

 

[ahc]

we messed with the Baby Sumo power amp I just acquired as well.

If you're so inclined, a blurb about the Baby Sumo power amp please?

 

[MrBEAR]

The Baby Sumo is 600 watts @ 4 ohms, 300 @ 8 ohms and 150 @ 16 ohms.

Mike and I agreed on the following:

Tantra half amp/power, however that works, and gain matched by ear with the Sumo. Sort of it turns out.
We alternated Bass --> Tantra pre-amplifier --> Baby Sumo / Tantra -->and went with the MAS Bodai 110 as the control cab.

Highs were fairly close, not so much to call it a close tie, but the Tantra has a defined air whereas the Baby Sumo has a slightly veiled yet pleasant presentation.

Lows were similar with the Tantra seeming meatier for us both.

Morning after thoughts added here with cleaned up text from a TB private message I answered last night from someone interested in the Baby Sumo with most of the contents of that reply included.
I have cats that spent my nine hours of drive time and probably more sleeping. Breakfast for them is almost always in the 4:00 am time frame with after meal preening conducted in front of the great room stereo waiting for the soundscape clips from BBC America World News. Audiophile cats, go figure. A snack and a nap for me, from which I was roused by a flurry of E-mails from Europe on an unrelated topic. Android updates ensued so I brewed coffee fired up the laptop figuring I would try to stay on the routine schedule until a longer, deeper couch snooze/nap set in. Supposed to snow here anyway so.......

I heard the Sumo as going lower, with the low B having a pure even voicing on the Sumo.
The Tantra seemed to be more palpable. Presentation, for me, had the Sumo going "this is what I hear" while the Tantra said "this is what you want to hear".

The mid-range was different and we talked at length about the Sumo having more grind or a textured quality than the Tantra. Then Mike plugged in again. Lowered the volume on the Sumo as he felt that it was a bit louder and may be what we were hearing. Quick listen and we agreed that output was more closely matched. Several back and forth's later we agreed that the Sumo had more grind and the Tantra had cleaner, wider spread. But... they were very close and well into the different flavors of really good territory and thus down to personal preference.

Is the Baby Sumo, Grace Design AliX combo a Tantra killer?
Nope.
Head and shoulders above say Magellan, Subway D800, Aguilar TH500, LWA1000 and MT900?
Yup.
IMHO, and based on what I heard and what works for me.
Conforms to "you get what you pay for".

Considering price points alone they should be.

Mike's bottom line was that the Sumo beat the popular Ice 700 module in all categories and.... at the price, size point, was an absolute steal.
He figured, just spit balling, if he did something similar with his power module he would probably be north of $650.
The Baby Sumo, with shipping and import duty, was south of $500

BTW: Euro to U.S.D. was at 1.07 yesterday so the Baby Sumo is now going for less than I paid.

All pretty quick impressions, hope they help.

 

[spiritbass]

There is, at this point, a no contest, hands down favorite that produced a huge, eyes closed listening, .

The oracle predicts a 15" Bodai in your future.