Big E Speakers Part 4 - Quadraphenia

[DGilpatrick]

Here is a quick review of the overall performance of our PA setup and the 218SLVX Tourmaster subs, from a recent performance at an outdoor show, by a long-time SLAMABAMA follower.

"My wife and I got to hear your new outdoor sound system for the first time last night at the Redwood Falls, MN County Fair performance. WOW!!! After hearing numerous shows by Slamabama the last 6 years, that was the best your sound system has sounded at an outdoor show! With those new subs, everything was so much clearer, it was like each aspect of the performance had its own speakers. Vocals, guitars, bass and drums all were amazing! We could walk to the other end of the fairgrounds and everything was still just as clear, with no dropout on the low-end!"

Next week we tackle The North Dakota State Fair, which has always been a tough venue for us, sound wise. It is a large open area with great crowds, and our PA has never been able to project to the back of the venue like it should. I have no doubt that this year will be quite a different experience, and we look forward to the challenge. There will be video and pics from these shows, so stay tuned!

Dennis

 

[mntngrown]

Anyone new to this thread, in the greater SF bay area that wants to hear these pm me tonight, about tomorrow.

 

[MarkA]

Been too busy to post much, but thought I'd share this. Visited Mike last week to pick up my new cab...

...and this isn't it. The three-eyed (mouthed? the mids look like eyes) purple monster above isn't mine, but I thought it worth snapping a photo of. It's for "a guy who plays really loud," according to Mike. I've not come close to tapping out a 210 Flex, so I guess you would have to play really loud to need a 310 Flex... The top two cabs are a 210 Flex mod, straight up, and the bottom is another sub, but crossed over (or low-passed - I'm not clear which) differently than the other two woofers (which are themselves crossed over differently from each other) in order to keep things balanced tonally. Mike did say that the "hot mids" setting of the Flex, which he usually finds hot for his taste, sounds good with the second sub.

I didn't ask, but I'd guess that the resulting load would be 2.7 Ohms nominal. Not sure about that, though.

I did ask Mike if I could add the new woofer to my existing Flex, and I could... I can't quite rationalize it though. It was late, and we spent time trying other cabs and a couple of Mike's basses, so I didn't get to hear this thing, but, based on playing the 210 with and without its sub, I can only imagine that the 310 sounds huge.

I didn't leave empty-handed, though. I picked up my 46 (no photo, but it exists), which has a couple of extra tricks that I discussed with Mike before having it built:

First, the tweeter's on a switch. Now, Mike uses nice tweeters - I never really liked tweeters on bass cabs before, but I usually leave these on - still, I want to be able to turn them off sometimes. Glad I got it - the top end is really nice without the tweet; a little more rounded and less sparkly, but not at all muffled. Nice if you're using a really bright bass or amp or if you just want something different. The cab sounds balanced with and without the tweeter.

Second, and this one is the crux, I have a switch on the mids. I know that the most recent 46s incorporated such a switch (at least as an option), but I've favored the more mid-present voicings of the 112 and the Flex to that of the 6" cabs when I've tried them before, so I had Mike make the hotter-mids setting (which all the cool kids like) the default on this one and the "on" setting "hotter yet". If we just removed a pad from the mids for the "hotter yet" setting, the cab might get unbalanced and lose its beautiful integration of woofer, mids, and tweet, so Mike worked out a whole second crossover for the hot setting. The cab has two complete crossovers, and the switch selects between them. The difference between the voicings is definite but subtle-ish.

I've only played the 46 at home so far - so far, I slightly prefer the mids in the default (old hot) setting using the cab on its own, and slightly prefer them in the hotter setting using it atop the Flex sub, but it depends on the bass and amp used and all of the settings sound good. The "hot" setting is still less mid-forward than the 18 Sound MAS 112, but not by too much. Those cabs are different in other ways, though.

Adding the sub makes the 46 sound huge, and while I boost bass with the 46 solo, I leave it flat or cut slightly with the sub. Hard to judge in an apartment, though! Honestly, the sub is too much for living room play, IMO, but I think it'll be different playing live with a band. The sub added enormously to the Flex top in that situation and I think/hope it'll do the same for the 46.

The Flex top is out of town at the moment, so, aside from a brief A/B in Mike's living room, I've not heard them side by side... Initial impression: 46 solo is more hi-fi and better balanced top-to-bottom than the Flex top, while the Flex has more textured and detailed mids. This 46 is much more even and mid-present than the two-way 66 I used to have. Harmonics pop better, too. I'll reserve further thoughts until I've had a chance to play them (46 and Flex) side by side. A meaningful evaluation of the 46+sub will have to wait for a gig, I think.

The 46 is a good deal smaller and maybe 10 pounds lighter than the Flex top - I can carry it with one hand by the strap on the end, and Mike put a second strap at the corner which helps with stairs and narrow doorways. I've got two sets of feet on it, so I can set it horizontally or on end.

That's all for now!

 

[MarkA]

Anyone new to this thread, in the greater SF bay area that wants to hear these pm me tonight, about tomorrow.

Have fun!

 

[mntngrown]

Thanks Mark. There is something "complete", gets it done about my 46 that makes me want to get a second one and call it done. Keeping in ming I am just a 4 string blues guy

 

[MarkA]

Thanks Mark. There is something "complete", gets it done about my 46 that makes me want to get a second one and call it done. Keeping in ming I am just a 4 string blues guy

I think "complete" is a good word for it. I haven't had much time with mine, but, from what I can tell so far, it's a well-integrated cab; the woofers go nice and low and the transition to mids and tweeter is smooth.

While I was picking up the 46, Mike changed the oil, checked the alignment (turns out the screws on the woofer actually were in need of a slight tightening, per Duke's suggestion here and elsewhere - Mike says this is less of an issue with Baltic birch, but that's a much heavier wood) and installed some new struts on my 112. I've been playing it back and forth with the 46 and that cab sounds better than ever - something addictively direct about it. Both it and the 46 are revealing cabs, but they have different presentations and emphasize different aspects of the sound. I want to get the 112 out again, soon, too.

Hey! If you read this before your GTG and there's someone there with a Flex sub, try your 46 on top of it and tell me what you think!

 

[BuffaloBob4343]

I feel the same way about the 18sound 112 as you do Mark. I should check my woofer screws as well.

So far, I've only had it on a stage once, and loved the way it sounded. I currently have a new project started, and have been limited to garage duty for the time being. But it is so tight, right and punchy in the mix so far. It sounds awesome with Monique, and I haven't even begun to dial things in yet.

 

[Ewo]

Yeah, the MAS112 (both versions!) just astounds me. I would never have expected a _single_ 1-12 cab cab could put out this much sound with this much clarity. The 3-D quality people have mentioned is for real. It's a bass sound that asserts itself in the mix with authority, but doesn't need to crowd the other instruments to do so.

Eh, that sounds too much like wine tasting blahblah. What I'm getting at is that it seems to naturally slot itself in the mix just the way you'd want. No bloat, no boom, no overhang.

Used the Faital cab on last weekend's gigs. A bit less mid-forward than the 18Sound version, a bit more plump in the upper bass. Two different flavors of excellent.

 

[BuffaloBob4343]

Great description. I agree that it just finds it place in the mix so nicely.

And while you are right, it does move a lot of air for a single twelve, I often still can't help but think two would be even better!

Yeah, the MAS112 (both versions!) just astounds me. I would never have expected a _single_ 1-12 cab cab could put out this much sound with this much clarity. The 3-D quality people have mentioned is for real. It's a bass sound that asserts itself in the mix with authority, but doesn't need to crowd the other instruments to do so.

Eh, that sounds too much like wine tasting blahblah. What I'm getting at is that it seems to naturally slot itself in the mix just the way you'd want. No bloat, no boom, no overhang.

Used the Faital cab on last weekend's gigs. A bit less mid-forward than the 18Sound version, a bit more plump in the upper bass. Two different flavors of excellent.

 

[mntngrown]

Hey, we had a great time at the GTG. The main focus became the comparison between Deemans 4x6 with the sub designed for the 4x5 and my 4x6 hooked up with Kesslari's 2x10 flex mod sub. Superbird and MiamiBasser both great upright players were the show for me and my buddy who hosted the GTG. There is nothin in the bass world IMHO like a great upright player. That's why the guy that builds these bad ass cabs has his design chops together. I was amazed at how we could switch heads with cabs and basses and they all were a different flavor of awesome. wrp brought his awesome Fodera's and the chops to match. A fun time. Thanks to all

 

[Superbird]

Hey, we had a great time at the GTG. The main focus became the comparison between Deemans 4x6 with the sub designed for the 4x5 and my 4x6 hooked up with Kesslari's 2x10 flex mod sub. Superbird and MiamiBasser both great upright players were the show for me and my buddy who hosted the GTG. There is nothin in the bass world IMHO like a great upright player. That's why the guy that builds these bad ass cabs has his design chops together. I was amazed at how we could switch heads with cabs and basses and they all were a different flavor of awesome. wrp brought his awesome Fodera's and the chops to match. A fun time. Thanks to all

Super fun guys! Great to meet all of you!

 

[DGilpatrick]

Here is a new video from the North Dakota State Fair showing my band, SLAMABAMA, and the Big E 218SLVX Tourmaster subs in action. This was shot from the stage with an iPhone, about 6 feet behind the cabs. My bass has zero stage volume, all the bass guitar you hear is from the front of house. With a good pair of headphones, you can hear just how thick the low-end is! These are amazing, amazing cabs!

 

[Dee-man]

Thanks again, mntngrown, for setting up the GTG. Just to give a little more feedback:

We compared the 210 flex mod sub vs the "regular" 110 sub that pairs with the 45. Not too surprisingly, the 46/210 sub was clear and balanced through the range, with a fullness and extra lowend heft as compared to just the 46 by itself.

The 46/regular sub (both cabs direct from amp) was bassier - a high bass/low mid hump as Mike correctly predicted here a couple months ago. BUT, to my ears, that extra bassiness gave a nice extra blast of oomph and punch without losing overall clarity. Different flavors.

Then we compared the 46/regular sub with the 46 daisy-chained from the regular sub with the sub's cross-over engaged (this cross-over switch sends the lows to the sub and anything above, say, 100 Hz, goes to the 46, and it's set at a lower crossover frequency than the 210 flex mod sub, for those who haven't been keeping up on this). I think we were all pretty surprised how similar it sounded to the 46/210 sub - again, balanced but with extra authority compared to the 46 alone. Not bad.

So, to my ears at least, the regular sub offers a couple of choices with the 46 which would probably be nice for all but the best-eared among us who want perfect balance between cabs/drivers. But I really like what either sub does for the 46 for those looking for a little more volume and authority from a single 46. Again, different flavors.

Thanks, DM

 

[BuffaloBob4343]

Here is a new video from the North Dakota State Fair showing my band, SLAMABAMA, and the Big E 218SLVX Tourmaster subs in action. This was shot from the stage with an iPhone, about 6 feet behind the cabs. My bass has zero stage volume, all the bass guitar you hear is from the front of house. With a good pair of headphones, you can hear just how thick the low-end is! These are amazing, amazing cabs!

Great crowd! Good for you! Would love to hear the system from out front!!

 

[J.Wolf]

Had a great MAS experience the other night. I finally bit the bullet and replaced the power section in my rig. I had been using the Sonic Farm DI into the power amp input on my puma 900, into the Flex 110 or 210. It sounded pretty darn good, but I know that the power section is the bottleneck in that chain, if there is one. So I picked up a used CA6 for a good price to use with the MAS rig.

So... Had an outdoor wedding gig, no PA support for the bass rig. Fired up the Sonic farm > CA6 > Flex 210Mod, and WOW.. Amazing difference in terms of quickness, note depth/weight and low end "slam" (as I like to call it). Just sounded incredible. I kept being amazed at how big and full the rig sounded with a full band, better than usual, which is really saying something. All night got great comments on the bass tone from bandmates.

The kicker? Come the end of the night, I went to break down and realized I had forgotten to plug in the 110 sub!!! All that amazing tone and and volume was coming from just the top cab! No problem whatsoever keeping up with a reasonably loud drummer, guitar player, keys and vocals. It was crazy. I guess all that clean iron headroom really benefitted the performance of the cab. Its not out of the question that the ICE 1000, or forthcoming Hypex 1400 (or 1200?) would hold a candle to the sled, but it's sure night and day with the 250ASX2 module. Like, not even funny.

Takeaway: suck it up, get a lead sled. And find a chiropractor you like. And get a hand truck.

 

[MarkA]

Lead sled, hand truck. Got it.

Were you running just one side of the CA6 (i.e. not bridged)?

 

[J.Wolf]

Yeah, just one side. And I think I was even using the DI out (top XLR) which has a lower output level. I can't imagine the oomph of bridging the amp and using the line out. I used to use a CA9, in retrospect it was way overkill for 99% of applications for a bass rig.

And when I think the difference in performance and cost between this and a Minnie..... Shoot. Time to put on the big boy pants.

 

[ganttbos]

I find the above power amp observations very interesting. Years ago in the TB amps forum, in the earlier days of power amps with switching power supplies, there was a lot of bantering about whether older style amps with conventional transformers (lead sleds) out-performed the newer technology lighter amps, specifically at the low frequencies that are important to bassists' rigs. It went on and on. Bob Lee of QSC argued that the perceived "slam factor" of lead sleds was a subjective anomaly that would disappear in a double-blind comparison between amps with equal gain factored in - conventional (iron plate) transformers vs. switching power supplies. I, like other old farts, was one who disagreed with him. Since the new lighter amps have improved a lot in recent years this issue has calmed down in amp forum discussions.

I sold my old Crown Power Tech 3 that was in my rig rack for many years and went with a PLX with no (to my ears) sacrifice. I now run my 2di4 through a Labgruppen IPD1200 - 600w/side into two 4-ohm MAS 4x6's. I carry a GK fusion 800 as a back-up. I've used the GK with an MAS 112 on some gigs and it's sometimes not enough. On one gig where the GK was not cutting it I switched to my regular Labgruppen using one side of the amp - 600w into the 112. It was dramatically better, to my ears, than the 800w GK, which uses, I believe, the same 800w ice module found in many microheads (including the Puma?).

Sorry if this post is rambling, and I end up comparing two non-lead sled amps, and perhaps further contributing to highjacking a thread on BigE cabs. My point is that there are light amps and there are light amps. Mike swears by the larger ice module and says it's way superior to the 800w version.

That said, if I weren't old and skinny I'd still carry a lead sled because IMO there is still a difference. But my rig is already overkill with the (amazing) MAS 4x6 cabs.

 

[J.Wolf]

I find the above power amp observations very interesting. Years ago in the TB amps forum, in the earlier days of power amps with switching power supplies, there was a lot of bantering about whether older style amps with conventional transformers (lead sleds) out-performed the newer technology lighter amps, specifically at the low frequencies that are important to bassists' rigs. It went on and on. Bob Lee of QSC argued that the perceived "slam factor" of lead sleds was a subjective anomaly that would disappear in a double-blind comparison between amps with equal gain factored in - conventional (iron plate) transformers vs. switching power supplies. I, like other old farts, was one who disagreed with him. Since the new lighter amps have improved a lot in recent years this issue has calmed down in amp forum discussions.

I sold my old Crown Power Tech 3 that was in my rig rack for many years and went with a PLX with no (to my ears) sacrifice. I now run my 2di4 through a Labgruppen IPD1200 - 600w/side into two 4-ohm MAS 4x6's. I carry a GK fusion 800 as a back-up. I've used the GK with an MAS 112 on some gigs and it's sometimes not enough. On one gig where the GK was not cutting it I switched to my regular Labgruppen using one side of the amp - 600w into the 112. It was dramatically better, to my ears, than the 800w GK, which uses, I believe, the same 800w ice module found in many microheads (including the Puma?).

Sorry if this post is rambling, and I end up comparing two non-lead sled amps, and perhaps further contributing to highjacking a thread on BigE cabs. My point is that there are light amps and there are light amps. Mike swears by the larger ice module and says it's way superior to the 800w version.

That said, if I weren't old and skinny I'd still carry a lead sled because IMO there is still a difference. But my rig is already overkill with the (amazing) MAS 4x6 cabs.

I remember that debate well. a watt's a watt's a watt. My back wishes that were true. In my experience PLX's NEVER sound like my CA9 did, or even my VS650. it wasn't an argument worth having (especially with anyone with a dog in the fight), because one side was never going to convince the other of anything, so I just watched the debate roll, and happily kept using what worked for me, despite being scientifically "wrong". Can't win em all.

The GK does use the same module as the Puma 900. I compared the Puma to the 1000w ICE module and it was vastly superior. As is the Hypex 700, but I'd be curious about comparing either of those to the iron Crest. Either way, the bang for the buck is insane.

 

[N. Kentucky Bass]

While I haven't tried these with Big E cabs, this is my experience with "slam factor":

Puma 900 + Sonic Farm 2di4 (great tone, powerful, but not quite "slam" territory)

QSC PLX 3602 + Sonic Farm 2di4 (great tone, slam - check)

Reiner Studio 1200 (w/ICE 1000 power module) (great tone, slam - check)

Selling the heavy PLX wasn't even a serious decision. The Puma is now backup. Got all the slam I need in a small, lightweight package. My back thanks me. Thank you for listening.