Big E speakers: Pt 2

[MultiScaleMale]

2 weeks I'll have a report and pics.

Another thing we're thinking of.Offering a 10", 12" and 15" sub cabinet with built-in crossover so that you can run your amp into the sub and then there would be an output for --say--a 45. Or a 25 with the ten.

Just thinking out loud. Thought the flexibility would be cool.

Cool! If I had a single criticism, it would be that there are too many options. But I guess it's early in the development cycle so you gotta try different combinations and eventuall the sweetspot of small, medium and large will shake out. It's really interesting to watch this develop.

 

[Mike Arnopol]

OK

Just did a bunch of playing through the 85, 45 and 110.

The interesting thing is that the MAS 110Flex sounds really nice with upright. (my Golia) To be honest---I had electric bass on the brain when we were designing it.My goal was as hifi of a sound---but the priority was power and presence. Because I felt that we succeeded at these goals I thought that it wouldn't be as good for upright. That's where the Flex became really helpful. Hit the phase switch (to out of phase) and boy did it sound good with upright. Went with the -6db switch for the mids and highs. I have to admit---it sounded as good as the 45 for upright.

The 110Flex does go louder than the 85. Maybe not a whole lot louder but more power in the lows and in the general presentation. But the sound of the 85----

Another thing--an owner of a 45 brought it to the ISB and I think it's being used in the Upton booth. Or so I was told.

 

[christw]

Just chiming in for a second-I haven't got to hit the 2x6's with the 300w tube heads yet but will soon. Mike, I still like the brighter rendition of the 2x6 a lot better. It's just a little less friendly to tube overdrive.

My take quick take on the MVW stuff: What your eyes see does not match what you hear and feel coming out of these cabinets. I may have occasionally stuck my hands and my face into the port while hitting them with more power than I need to... ouch! Now I know how to give myself a headache. The SPL that these put out is painfully ridiculous and the dispersion they get puts every top dollar PA I've heard to shame. These two 2x6 cabs will muscle out most 410's I've used with ten times the articulation and note separation. They don't do muddy or woofy.

I definitely recommend that the skeptics get their hands on these cabs at least once. I'll meet anyone local to me and bring more than enough power.

 

[JGR]

just talking to Steve---bouncing some ideas around.

I'll have production models of the MAS 110 and 210 in a few weeks.

OK--this is a bit nuts--but---
We're going to make a single 15" based cab

19 x 19 x 45"
likely around 100#
about 100db efficient--an amp with a solid 500 watts would likely be enough---this would kill with a huge tube amp
4 ohms (or 8)

Faital 15XL1400 xmax of 12.9mm
RMS power handling of 1400 watts---real world--maybe 1000watts
should be able to get a -3db of 35hz.

(4) of the 6.5 Faitals (used in the 10" cabs)
(2) Ciare tweets

The amount of air moved with this cab should be the equivalent of about 2300 cc's

An SVT 810 is about 1200 I think
A 215 based on the Kappalite 3015lf's is around 1700cc's

Should be very close to 2 SVT's or 3 super 15's

probably wouldn't sell any but I have to make one!

Now THAT sounds like my kind of cab!!!

 

[DukeLeJeune]

The skepticism is warranted.

IMHO - Big-E speakers may work well in-spite of the evidence they a "Vortex"
ALEX SALVATTI, ALLAN DEVANTIER, DOUG J. BUTTON,

For example:
Invalid Link Removed

Vortex Shedding is mentioned, there is even diagrams, and the references give several Studies, Papers, and Patents from engineers who design to minimize it.

Vortices are not sound waves, they don't travel at the speed of sound. They interfere with port operation. The evidence is to minimize any vortex. It's been studied.

If you follow the patent trail the above document you'll find big makers suing each other over designs that minimize any vortex. That's a lot of dough over this.

IMHO - the vortex ploy isn't what Big-E should focus on.
Actual measurements and performance can go a long way.

The paper you linked to is one of the reasons why I use flared ports, but it's not the main reason. The main reason is, I have observed audible advantages to flared ports.

I am not involved with Big E technology because it was explained convincingly to me or proven to me in some way. On the contrary, I have enough technical background to recognize that what they claim doesn't make a damn bit of sense based on my (decades of) experience in loudspeaker theory and design. I'm involved because I have observed audible advantages to Big E technology enclosures.

A wee bit of background on where I come from - I mainly design for the home audio and studio loudspeaker markets, and use my ears to listen critically and identify the presence of audible problems that made it past my first measure-refine-measure cycle, so that I can correct or at least minimize such problems in a subsequent measure-refine-measure cycle. I've had some success with this approach. For instance, in the current issue of Mix Magazine, a studio that uses mains I designed is honored in their "Class of 2013" feature article.

Okay, if you really want to play the skeptic card, you can discount my observations, along with those of anyone involved with Big E products for profit, and maybe even the observations of anyone who isn't trained and highly experienced at critical listening... but that still leaves one person. There is one person who has posted in this thread whose ears I would trust more than my own measurements. If this person told me that my cab had thus-and-such problem, even if I'd never seen it in my measurements or heard it with my ears, I would believe him.

That person is nomatic.

Nomatic is a high-end recording industry professional, a genuine world-class authority and expert in the field of making accurate observations by ear. Go back and re-read his observations, because they count for far more than the measurements you keep asking for.

 

[Mike Arnopol]

An even more important reason to listen to Nomatic---he plays bass for a living, too. And has owned ever piece of high end gear out there. He's a mastering engineer and his studio speakers cost more than I make in a month.

The cool thing is---he's out there gigging in every conceivable situation.

So for me it's the perfect situation----he has the ear chops and then takes the gear into real-world situations.

 

[Mike Arnopol]

Now THAT sounds like my kind of cab!!!

Love to hear your pre through one!

I see you're in Maryland. I'm driving to Baltimore on Thursday to visit my daughter.

 

[mntngrown]

An even more important reason to listen to Nomatic---he plays bass for a living, too. And has owned ever piece of high end gear out there. He's a mastering engineer and his studio speakers cost more than I make in a month.

The cool thing is---he's out there gigging in every conceivable situation.

So for me it's the perfect situation----he has the ear chops and then takes the gear into real-world situations.

Just like the conventional wisdom that if you sailed far enough you would sail off the edge of the flat earth.
Or the physician who discovered the connection of E-pylori
with many stomach ulcers, who was slapped down by the prevailing experts and out of frustration actually infected himself with E-pylori and gave himself an ulcer, then cured it! It is cool you have some users like nomatic and DirtPoorRobbins with credentials that are digging these cabs. Bar band hacks like me don't add a lot of credibility when praising the design. But I have owned a lot of gear including Mesa Boogie 2x15, Ampeg 4x10,2x Acme 2x10 stack, fEarful 1515/66, and will only say my 48 is very unique and pleasing to my ear in a band mix indoors and out. The dispersion and projection of a 4x8 outdoors boggles my mind.

 

[pbasswil]

The skepticism is warranted.

(...)

IMHO - the vortex ploy isn't what Big-E should focus on.
Actual measurements and performance can go a long way.

I sort of understand where he's coming from. He's obviously a scientist/engineer of some kind; and those guy's whole being centers around explaining physical phenomena and making it reproduceable: It's not real until it's been minutely explained in a paper that has passed peer scrutiny.

They can't stand "lay" people loosely tossing around technical terms and subjective superlatives in the same sentence. :^D lol

For most of us musicians, otoh, it's not real until our fingers on strings have caused it to happen to our ears. Once we experience that, explaining the physics is a distraction.

Bless the scientists, & bless the musicians. May they suffer each other in good humor. :^)

 

[NorCal Dog]

The dispersion and projection of a 4x8 outdoors boggles my mind.

word

 

[JGR]

Love to hear your pre through one!

I see you're in Maryland. I'm driving to Baltimore on Thursday to visit my daughter.

Cool, I'm about 45 min north of Baltimore, right off 95. You're more than welcome to swing by if you have time/are in the area, would love to have you.

 

[DirtPoorRobins]

Great to hear you got a cab into ISB, Gary is a great guy and a great guy to have hear the big e cabs. He's an old family friend and we went to high school together, now he makes some of the best basses on the planet. I love visiting his shop every time I'm home, just a nice old school vibe. I hope he likes your cab....who am I kidding, who wouldn't like it!

 

[nomatic]

Thanks for the kind words guys!

I will say that the Big E design is one of the few things that has come into my hands
in recent history that defies my understanding of acoustics. The presentation of your
instrument is almost holographic {as in everywhere at once.} Also it is interesting
that small set up issues like pickup and saddle height are real obvious. Any weakness in
your signal chain will show up as well as the good and bad in technique. Mike and I
were talking the other day and felt like the 85 cab is more like an instrument than a speaker....
I went back to listen to a conventional ported cab after using the Big E on a couple of
gigs and it sounded quite messy in comparison. I think my 35 year search for the ultimate bass amp is soon to be over with. The Monique Preamp, clean power and
one of Mike's cabs is the finest reproduction I have heard.

 

[John D Harris]

...

These speakers may in fact be capable of some extraordinary performance. I would need more information before I'd consider trying one.

...

Ok so you're skeptical, that's cool.
You think the designers misnamed their technology; that's cool.
What I don't understand is the insistence on satisfying your brain before allowing your ears to judge.
DSFDF and all that, but just seems a bit odd to me.
I'm always curious about new technologies & designs, but consider my ears' interpretation of the technology the first and last arbiter of the technology's execution.

If you mean by the above, before you'd go out of your way to listen to one, I can sort of understand that; maybe I'm misreading your statement.

 

[seamonkey]

The paper you linked to is one of the reasons why I use flared ports, but it's not the main reason. The main reason is, I have observed audible advantages to flared ports.

I know people can heighten their listening abilities and some people are better observers than others, but only within human limits.

We are lucky to have some great players on this board.

Sometimes though the endorser stuff goes to extremes i.e. Wooten power cord.
[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]

I see other here and another thread ask for well - proof. And Prosound web had some even offer up doing this. Why not take them up on the offer? If Big-E doesn't agree then see the thread where BGM and Genz Benz engineers didn't agree on measurements BGM published. That was was some serious constructive discussion. And both side won.

 

[seamonkey]

If you mean by the above, before you'd go out of your way to listen to one, I can sort of understand that; maybe I'm misreading your statement.

Yes, I wouldn't waste mine or any builders time. I subscribe that you need to try a cabinet for several weeks, i.e. a month and at several different venues. And get some feedback from others who are listening to you. One set ears just aren't as reliable.

Multiple ears - thousands have listen to measurements through the years. That where it all comes from. People like it, it's is measured with science. Repeatable results.

Maybe my feeble ears wouldn't hear the radical claims.

 

[Mike Arnopol]

I see other here and another thread ask for well - proof.

As I stated earlier---the most constructive proof is what it does in the context it was designed for.

I don't even look at graphs of other speakers these days. I can have 5 graphs that measure within 2db of eachother and you know what? The cabs sound COMPLETELY different. But much more---they FEEL completely different. The TC115 and MAS 85 measured nearly the same. They sound completely different but more importantly---they function very differently. Not a comparison---they both excel at different things. But even being able to eq two speakers to measure exactly the same----they won't sound the same. And they won't function the same.

The best thing I've heard about these cabs wasn't about any measurements.

A player said "it feels like my right hand is connected directly to the speaker".

To me this isn't a vague or abstract comment. For a guy playing gigs for a living it's as concrete of a statement as possible. That's the holy grail. You can find ways to manipulate frequency response to exactly what you want. Being able to get the envelope of the note to have the immediacy at the start of the note and to have that wonderful separation of notes---I know we have it---now THAT'S what I want to get measured.

 

[Mike Arnopol]

Cool, I'm about 45 min north of Baltimore, right off 95. You're more than welcome to swing by if you have time/are in the area, would love to have you.

I can't guarantee anything (I don't know my schedule) but I've got enough room in the Caravan to bring the MAS 110 Flex along with. It's funny---I've got an 85 two 45's and a 46 shipping tomorrow. I never have a current model on hand! But I'll bring the 110. I assume you've got a bass or 2 there?

 

[JGR]

Cool, hope we can line something up. Basses? - yeah, I got 10 or 12 laying around! Sent ya a PM!

 

[Jeff Scott]

Maybe "vortex" isn't the best word for the Big E stuff.

It can be a tough thing to come up with a name to describe a new technology and have it accepted by the masses.

Here's one that may be more acceptable (to the enlightened ones, anyway): Jump Gate.

In the Babylon 5 television series, a jumpgate is an apparatus with the power to open a vortex that connects normal space with hyperspace...