• TalkBass has been independent since 1998. Add your voice.
    Create a free account to reply to discussions, view embedded media, and browse with fewer display ads.
    Join free Log in
    Want zero display ads or expanded classifieds tools? Compare plans.

Big E speakers: Pt 2

Status
Not open for further replies.
#401
Your natural skepticism based on the usual parameters is very rational. Just like when I bought a 4x8 cab from Mike, and told him I was in the habit of rolling a 1515/66 to my gigs. He agreed that the proprietary new 8" drivers would be the way to go for me.
I am not saying I have AB'd them and they have equal output. I am merely saying the 4x8 bears no similarity to any 8 loaded cab I have heard. Puts the SWR's to shame IMHO and has handled my outdoor gigs w/o being in the PA and the dispersion thing is just too amazing. I am keeping the proudly self built 1515/66 in case I need to fill another huge outdoor space w/o support, even though the 4x8 might be up to the task. My feeling without having yet heard one, is that the BigE guys incorporating the Eminence LF format with quality midrange and tweeters using the MVW tech will be something cool to hear. I don't need anymore cabs. But if I was Paul Allen etc I would buy what Mike is talking about just to hear it. Big E has something here.
I just got home from a medium size outdoor music event, where the sound company had 4 JBL vintage mains based on the metal dust cap JBLs in boxes with the curved wood horns,(sorry I am not a sound engineer). My point is the headliner's bass player was playing through a fridge, powered by a solid state head. Great musician, but I had to go centerfield to get a good mix, and enjoy the music and listen intently to the bass player.
If he had a BigE cab I am pretty certain based on my wireless wanderings, and letting others play through my rig, I could have listened from my position 45% off, closer to the beer vendor:hiding:
 
#402
Your natural skepticism based on the usual parameters is very rational. Just like when I bought a 4x8 cab from Mike, and told him I was in the habit of rolling a 1515/66 to my gigs. He agreed that the proprietary new 8" drivers would be the way to go for me.
I am not saying I have AB'd them and they have equal output. I am merely saying the 4x8 bears no similarity to any 8 loaded cab I have heard. Puts the SWR's to shame IMHO and has handled my outdoor gigs w/o being in the PA and the dispersion thing is just too amazing. I am keeping the proudly self built 1515/66 in case I need to fill another huge outdoor space w/o support, even though the 4x8 might be up to the task. My feeling without having yet heard one, is that the BigE guys incorporating the Eminence LF format with quality midrange and tweeters using the MVW tech will be something cool to hear. I don't need anymore cabs. But if I was Paul Allen etc I would buy what Mike is talking about just to hear it. Big E has something here.
I just got home from a medium size outdoor music event, where the sound company had 4 JBL vintage mains based on the metal dust cap JBLs in boxes with the curved wood horns,(sorry I am not a sound engineer). My point is the headliner's bass player was playing through a fridge, powered by a solid state head. Great musician, but I had to go centerfield to get a good mix, and enjoy the music and listen intently to the bass player.
If he had a BigE cab I am pretty certain based on my wireless wanderings, and letting others play through my rig, I could have listened from my position 45% off, closer to the beer vendor:hiding:
 
#403
mntngrown said:
I just got home from a medium size outdoor music event, where the sound company had 4 JBL vintage mains based on the metal dust cap JBLs in boxes with the curved wood horns,(sorry I am not a sound engineer). My point is the headliner's bass player was playing through a fridge, powered by a solid state head. Great musician, but I had to go centerfield to get a good mix, and enjoy the music and listen intently to the bass player.
If he had a BigE cab I am pretty certain based on my wireless wanderings, and letting others play through my rig, I could have listened from my position 45% off, closer to the beer vendor:hiding:
Click to expand...

I hear what you are saying, but my experience with those classic PAs with the JBLs in those types of horns is that the low end was less than impressive. I love the Sunn double 15" with JBLs from the late 60s for a certain sound, but bass cabinet and PA cabinet technology has moved so far and so fast in the last 15 years or so that those old 70s PAs are really not a good benchmark to use for any kind of fidelity. They are truly dinosaurs.
 
#405
dmusic148 said:
That's..................pretty amazing. Color me skeptical.
Click to expand...

Part of the kudos go to Eminence.
First of all---none of this works without a great driver.

The new Kappalite 3010lf literally moves twice as much air as a conventional 10. So we're starting ahead of the game. So you put it into a MVW waveguide and you get four times the output of a conventional 10.
 
#406
Mike Arnopol said:
just talking to Steve---bouncing some ideas around.

I'll have production models of the MAS 110 and 210 in a few weeks.

OK--this is a bit nuts--but---
We're going to make a single 15" based cab

19 x 19 x 45"
likely around 100#
about 100db efficient--an amp with a solid 500 watts would likely be enough---this would kill with a huge tube amp
4 ohms (or 8)

Faital 15XL1400 xmax of 12.9mm
RMS power handling of 1400 watts---real world--maybe 1000watts
should be able to get a -3db of 35hz.

(4) of the 6.5 Faitals (used in the 10" cabs)
(2) Ciare tweets

The amount of air moved with this cab should be the equivalent of about 2300 cc's

An SVT 810 is about 1200 I think
A 215 based on the Kappalite 3015lf's is around 1700cc's

Should be very close to 2 SVT's or 3 super 15's

probably wouldn't sell any but I have to make one!
Click to expand...

That's crazy, but I admire the "I have to make one!" spirit!

Barring a sudden change of fortunes that involves playing arenas, I won't be buying one of those -- but I bet someone out there needs one, if not for practical, physical application then for spiritual affirmation.

Lots has happened on a smaller scale since I last checked in -- The 5", 6.5" and new 10" based cabs all sound interesting and I could see myself using any of them in different contexts.

Speaking of which, incoming PM, Mike!
 
#407
I heart ya, Mike, not trying to call you out or anything, you seem like a great guy and all, but what yourself and others are saying, it's just.......bizarre. I mean, truly epic, bizarre freaky weirdness.
Would love to hear one though. Anybody got one near southwest CT? Greater Danbury area? NYC?
 
#408
Dude--trust me---I hadn't heard about them before Leland showed up with a sub. I tapped on the cone and it sounded like a bass drum. No damping? Nope. Makes NO sense.

So I drove 2 1/2 and tried them. I swear, man ---even when I started making them I was still questioning my sanity. But now I feel more than confident. Of course I'm working on different voicings, etc. but I know that the technology is sound.

There are a couple in Boston, NYC, and--I have to check---I think one is going to Burlington.

Also--as long as I'm holding the dough---anyone can try one for a week. If you don't dig it---send it back---you pay shipping. Never had one returned.
 
#409
Serendipity Mike. I was really coming to see you to learn how to do composite cabs. It just happened that BigE was on the way. They'd been pestering me for months about some crazy new thing they had. I, like most with at least some background in audio, told them they were nuts. So I stopped by their place on the way. Pretty much had my mind blown, and that was 3 generations of development back. The last rev on the GC25 (2x5) has to be heard to be believed. It will keep up with a 12 and a horn, and sounds like nothing I've ever heard outside the audiophile realm.
 
#410
It sure makes me feel better to hear both Mike and Leland mention their initial skepticism about BigE. I bought my two MA46's based solely upon what these two guys told me. I was all set to move on another manufacturer's cabs and I made a leap of faith. When I got the cabs I was really worried. The low end was tight and punchy but I thought they'd never be really audible at gig volume. I'm about 20 gigs in now and I'm finally starting to relax, and I'm still lowering the volume and "settling in". My guitarist runs sound and when we check my channel gain before a gig with my backline off I'm floored at the paltry contribution of the mains to my sound. We're not killing loud but we're not an easy listening band either. These cabs are very serious!
 
#411
The skepticism is warranted.

IMHO - Big-E speakers may work well in-spite of the evidence they a "Vortex"
ALEX SALVATTI, ALLAN DEVANTIER, DOUG J. BUTTON,

For example:
Invalid Link Removed

Vortex Shedding is mentioned, there is even diagrams, and the references give several Studies, Papers, and Patents from engineers who design to minimize it.

Vortices are not sound waves, they don't travel at the speed of sound. They interfere with port operation. The evidence is to minimize any vortex. It's been studied.

If you follow the patent trail the above document you'll find big makers suing each other over designs that minimize any vortex. That's a lot of dough over this.

IMHO - the vortex ploy isn't what Big-E should focus on.
Actual measurements and performance can go a long way.
 
#412
You know---the problem the designers have is what the hell to call it. I read through the paper---I think it's a MUST read for anyone dealing with ported enclosures. The diagram you posted in another thread (from the Big E website)Showed a DIY enclosure using cross-firing and a ported enclosure. That's not at all what's inside the MVW enclosure.

The paper you showed has some super cool stuff but it is relating to ported enclosures which utilize a Helmholtz resonator. The MVW does not. Maybe "vortex" isn't the best word for the Big E stuff. But I have to tell you---what these enclosures do is really unprecedented. What is coming out of the ports is full range.Reflex, transmission lines and labyrynths deal with only the first octave. Nothing above that comes out.

Horn loading can be full range but to get a horn to go as low as an MVW cab with the horn would be HUMONGOUS.

Maybe the word choices aren't the best but what the speakers do is verified by owners of around 30 cabs out there.

Again I invite anyone to stop over and try them. Also---I offer a 7 day return policy for anyone to try one.

I have provided measurements and performance has been verified time and again.

Man---you sure make the rounds criticizing the Big E stuff. Three different threads and counting.

I dunno---maybe it's a personal thing. Do I owe you money---or did I date your sister?


seamonkey said:
The skepticism is warranted.

IMHO - Big-E speakers may work well in-spite of the evidence they a "Vortex"
ALEX SALVATTI, ALLAN DEVANTIER, DOUG J. BUTTON,

For example:
Invalid Link Removed

Vortex Shedding is mentioned, there is even diagrams, and the references give several Studies, Papers, and Patents from engineers who design to minimize it.

Vortices are not sound waves, they don't travel at the speed of sound. They interfere with port operation. The evidence is to minimize any vortex. It's been studied.

If you follow the patent trail the above document you'll find big makers suing each other over designs that minimize any vortex. That's a lot of dough over this.

IMHO - the vortex ploy isn't what Big-E should focus on.
Actual measurements and performance can go a long way.
Click to expand...
 
#415
It's not personal attack. No need to follow that angle. Thought I'd post here so you could find it easy. I was going to post in another thread.

http://www.talkbass.com/forum/f15/fitzmaurice-cab-my-needs-988600/index2.html#post14410238

Maybe the Vortex is a bad name because every reference I read show sound can't do a vortex, Air can.
So it plays to if there's something here unknown, or an observation that others could confirm.

The picture I posted is from the Big-E website
[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]

[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]
It was captured from the sketchup file posted at the Big-E site

Beside the port stuffinig, it looks very similar to the Big-E "Vortex" post on youtube.
Maybe it's not the same design.
The post on Youtube does show air turbulence. Sawdust being pushed around by it.

Maybe someone who purchased a cab can take out a speaker and photograph it. Look under the hood so to say. Nothing unethical or against any law.

This is nothing to do with "If it sounds good, it is good"
I know there are happy customers.

These speakers may in fact be capable of some extraordinary performance. I would need more information before I'd consider trying one.

Oh and btw - Big-E was not a "ridiculous" design I ever refereed to. That wasn't me. Read it again.
I do think there are some bad designed pushed but I was not including Big-E
 
#417
It's all good, man. If I didn't have the first hand experience I would likely be one of the worst as far as criticism.

Those pics are of a reflex sub that they did years ago. The internals are completely different.

If you look on the Big E Facebook page there are (or were) pics with the drivers removed. You can't see much---just the driver chamber area--there are multiple things going on there that aren't visible.

Paperwork has been filed for patent--just waiting for the patent search--after that I think that Tom and Steve will be a bit more open as far as discussing things. Go on the forums at the Big E website. Tom and Steve are talking about this all the time. Ask questions---they're good guys.

I think that a degree of paranoia is understandable in today's society as far as intellectual property. Leo Fender used to pot electronics in epoxy so nobody would steal the design.

Just imagine---IF what we say is true---can you imagine how new and revolutionary this stuff is?

Sorry to be doing Buddhistspeak---but in in comparing religions (or anything else that should have a solid logical base) there are what we call 3 proofs.
1. Theoretical proof----what are the theories behind it and do they hold up to scientific scrutiny?

2. Documentary proof----is it documented in a clear, logical and scientific manner?

3. Actual Proof---this is really the most important---
what does it actually do? Does it function in the real world in a value-creating way? Is the function in line with the theories and documentation?

Of the three---actual proof is by far the most important to most. As bassists, we have very clear experience with the function of the products we use. It's not like we're taking a supplement and waiting 6 months to vaguely assess its efficacy.

We can tell on the first gig. And each subsequent gig either supports and validates that experience. Or negates it.

As a non scientist and a working bassist I tend to work backward from actual to theoretical and then to documentary.
 
#418
cybersnyder said:
Interested in the 2x10.
Click to expand...

2 weeks I'll have a report and pics.

Another thing we're thinking of.Offering a 10", 12" and 15" sub cabinet with built-in crossover so that you can run your amp into the sub and then there would be an output for --say--a 45. Or a 25 with the ten.

Just thinking out loud. Thought the flexibility would be cool.
 
#419
The 85 Mike delivered to me last week should not produce the low end and volume
that it does with these tiny faital drivers....
The 3D thing that is happening is really interesting and unique to my 2 decades as audio
engineer and I encourage any skeptic to pony up and try one!
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Latest posts

Top Bottom
Back