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Big E Speakers pt 3

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#761
The question

Could a MAS-26 keep up with an MAS-210 sub if it were not required to go low, lets say in a biamp setup crossed over in the 300 hz region?

The explanation

I dont have a need for a one cab for small gigs and add another for large gigs scenerio. For me, I need a really small cab for coffe house style solo gigs, practice, and writing sessions, and a full blown rig for stage performance. I figure if the amp is chosen appropriately, it can be run full range on the MAS-26 for small settings and then biamped with the 210 sub for rockin levels. Plus, at most practice studios, there is a 410 or 810 available, but the mids and highs are always aweful. I could just bring the head and a 26 and biamp into the house cab for pumping out the lows. not optimal but definitely better than sucking it up and dealing with whats on hand.

Seems to solve all of the problems for me at least. I am just assuming that the flex uses different 6" drivers that are more efficient, to keep up with the 210s, so I dont know if it would work. But an intriguing concept. I mean ultimately, id love to do this type of set up with a 25 even, but i know that they wouldn't be able to keep up.
 
#762
Yes---that would work GREAT.If I had my way everything would be biamped. Fortunately I don't!

I'm looking into digital amp modules with DSP to put in a cab. More just for my own use--don't know if anyone would be as dumb as me to pop for one. The nice thing about biamping and DSP is that you can do almost anything. Completely optimize your speaker.

Just biamping gets you most of the way there. While the top section of the Flex's is a touch better in terms of ultimate clarity the 26 is no slouch. I spent a lot of time with it yesterday. The thing is---you can't use the Flex top section stand alone. These drivers are amazing but they don't go below 100hz. The 26 will do 32hz.
It's a great idea and would work super well.(one 26 and 210 sub)

A customer hipped me to this amp. I'm drooling.Jule got me a Monique and I'm smitten. Check out this amp

[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]

Oh---and by the way---you could even go lower than 300hz. I think it could compete crossed over at 180 to 200hz.

MWBass said:
The question

Could a MAS-26 keep up with an MAS-210 sub if it were not required to go low, lets say in a biamp setup crossed over in the 300 hz region?

The explanation

I dont have a need for a one cab for small gigs and add another for large gigs scenerio. For me, I need a really small cab for coffe house style solo gigs, practice, and writing sessions, and a full blown rig for stage performance. I figure if the amp is chosen appropriately, it can be run full range on the MAS-26 for small settings and then biamped with the 210 sub for rockin levels. Plus, at most practice studios, there is a 410 or 810 available, but the mids and highs are always aweful. I could just bring the head and a 26 and biamp into the house cab for pumping out the lows. not optimal but definitely better than sucking it up and dealing with whats on hand.

Seems to solve all of the problems for me at least. I am just assuming that the flex uses different 6" drivers that are more efficient, to keep up with the 210s, so I dont know if it would work. But an intriguing concept. I mean ultimately, id love to do this type of set up with a 25 even, but i know that they wouldn't be able to keep up.
Click to expand...
 
#763
Most of the mids from the 26 are coming from the 3s, so they wouldn't keep up with the 210 sub. The 6.5s are different in the 26/46 than the flex series.

Edit: I see mike has replied. I defer. Id still just throw a 46 under an 8 ohm 26 and be modular city.
 
#764
Mike Arnopol said:
Yes---that would work GREAT.If I had my way everything would be biamped. Fortunately I don't!

I'm looking into digital amp modules with DSP to put in a cab. More just for my own use--don't know if anyone would be as dumb as me to pop for one. The nice thing about biamping and DSP is that you can do almost anything. Completely optimize your speaker.

Just biamping gets you most of the way there. While the top section of the Flex's is a touch better in terms of ultimate clarity the 26 is no slouch. I spent a lot of time with it yesterday. The thing is---you can't use the Flex top section stand alone. These drivers are amazing but they don't go below 100hz. The 26 will do 32hz.
It's a great idea and would work super well.(one 26 and 210 sub)

A customer hipped me to this amp. I'm drooling.Jule got me a Monique and I'm smitten. Check out this amp

[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]

Oh---and by the way---you could even go lower than 300hz. I think it could compete crossed over at 180 to 200hz.
Click to expand...

Very cool,

Its a good thing to know. I guess the only other question I have is how much power to send to the 2x6. Suppose you sent a full onslaught of 800 watts to the 210 sub, how much power would need to be going to the 2x6 to have it lock in nicely. 1/2 the power? 1/4 the power?

Logic says that this could be done be getting any small amp that I like and then using the effects send to split the signal via a small external 2-way to a larger amp for the sub crossed in that 200 hz region, and then send the hi pass back into the fx return. Or buy a unit that actually has biampability.

PS- that Lab Gruppen piece looks exceptional. They never stop do they?
 
#765
spiritbass said:
Here's a prototype pic from the BigE FB page:

MiniFlexprototype_zps8ac4121c.png
Click to expand...

Home audio. Aimed at a particular product on the market now. :hyper:
 
#766
Do you guys think that I should just go with a modular two cab solution for the 48? That might be cool in that the upper 28 portion goes pretty darn loud by itself.

It's too bad--I was talking to Eminence and they don't have any neo baskets that would work with my 6.5's or 8's. The cool thing is that these speakers have crazy long Xmax's. The length of the voice coil gaps in their current neo baskets for 6's and 8's isn't long enough.

It would have been an upcharge for the neo's --but---it would have saved 10# on a 46 and on the prototype of the 48--about 20#.
 
#768
Mike Arnopol said:
Do you guys think that I should just go with a modular two cab solution for the 48? That might be cool in that the upper 28 portion goes pretty darn loud by itself.
Click to expand...

When I read your description of the monster 4x8 my first thought was a modular solution from the start.

Say, what are you going to name it, the Flex 208 & 208 sub (or 408)? Or will you solicit via a contest? Offer a discount to the winning member? I don't see a reason to depart from the Flex name though...

Raz
 
#769
The 4x8 sounds like a beast. It also seems a bit heavy. coyoteboy's question is a good one too. I have two others about the 4x8 : is the frequency roll-off of the 8s such that you can get away with not using a LPF in the crossover? That would mean no big, heavy inductor would be needed and save some weight. Also, could a mid-range driver with a higher frequency range be used so that the tweeters are unnecessary? Again, a weight savings.

I guess I should also ask, if you don't mind, what are the roll-off frequencies used in the crossover? If you prefer not to divulge them, that's cool. :)
 
#771
Especially given what is being said about the performance of the 48, that it is louder and lower than the flex 210 (which IMO is righteously loud and low) I would think one 28 would sound killer, be more than enough for some folks, and be portable. Add a second for the full effect. But I'm a modular kind of guy.

All that being said, I will admit that the flex 210 is the first 70 pound box that has made me WANT to schlep around because it sounds so darn good
 
#772
thumbs&fingers said:
Mike,

As a 4x8 owner, the idea of it being 20# lighter is awesome-trade in?
Click to expand...

I guess I didn't state this clearly---IF (which I can't) get the current design drivers in neo it would weigh that much less. But Eminence does not have neo cast-frame baskets that would accommodate the long excursion voice coils that we use in the current drivers. (ceramic magnet, steel frames).
 
#773
Vince Klortho said:
The 4x8 sounds like a beast. It also seems a bit heavy. coyoteboy's question is a good one too. I have two others about the 4x8 : is the frequency roll-off of the 8s such that you can get away with not using a LPF in the crossover? That would mean no big, heavy inductor would be needed and save some weight. Also, could a mid-range driver with a higher frequency range be used so that the tweeters are unnecessary? Again, a weight savings.

I guess I should also ask, if you don't mind, what are the roll-off frequencies used in the crossover? If you prefer not to divulge them, that's cool. :)
Click to expand...

The great thing that Steve did with the Flex cabs was realizing that the mid driver I wanted to use went very low (very comfortably) for a mid driver. It has response to 100 hz and an xmax of 5mm. This is unbelievable for a good mid driver.
So we're crossing over quite low. Between 200 and 300 hz. (it changes with the switching).

I think that the strong point of the Flex cabs is that there is a separate vortex waveguide for the woofers and mids. So the mids---which are covering from 200 to 8khz have their own optimized waveguide. While I could eek out performance of the 10"er to lets say---2k--that's not its strong point. It would be the same with the 8's. I want to use drivers in the range where they excel and hand it off to the next driver. This is no easy feat---which is why having Steve and Duke helping with the crossovers can make this happen. The art is in the crossover design.

I'll see two cabs with virtually the same enclosures and drivers sound really different. It's in the crossovers. Not just doing a good job of integrating drivers and fixing problems with filters. Voicing, voicing, voicing. One cab may be voiced---let's say 2db down from 800 to 5khz. It will sound dull in comparison to a cab that's just voiced 2db hotter in that region. That's a subtle voicing difference but you can really hear it. Understanding where the goalposts are for voicing and trying to achieve that goal is for me the hardest part of crossover and speaker design in general.

The mids do go to 8khz. Common sense would dictate that this is all you'd need for bass. But I'll tell ya-----you can hear the difference with the Ciares. It's only a couple of pounds---but I think it's worth it.

Who knows---the 28/48 thing might or might not happen. Maybe it'll suck---who knows? But I think we will approach it as a two cab setup.

Upper cab---23 or 24 wide by 26 high by 15 and likely around 55#. Lower cab--around 18" high and around 35#.

We'll see.
 
#774
Mike Arnopol said:
The great thing that Steve did with the Flex cabs was realizing that the mid driver I wanted to use went very low (very comfortably) for a mid driver. It has response to 100 hz and an xmax of 5mm. This is unbelievable for a good mid driver. So we're crossing over quite low. Between 200 and 300 hz. (it changes with the switching).

I think that the strong point of the Flex cabs is that there is a separate vortex waveguide for the woofers and mids. So the mids---which are covering from 200 to 8khz have their own optimized waveguide.
Click to expand...

Amen. And a beautiful strong point it is. I gained a new appreciation of just how delicious the mid range can be when I heard the first note through my Flex. :cool:
 
#775
spiritbass said:
Amen. And a beautiful strong point it is. I gained a new appreciation of just how delicious the mid range can be when I heard the first note through my Flex. :cool:
Click to expand...

You gentlemen are not making my wait any easier! :hyper:
But as they say, patience is a virtue...
Especially because I suggested the delay :D
But every time I read more about other players' experience with the Flex cabs, some dork inside me starts going "Hubba hubba!"

I'm really excited about these cabs, and going out to kick a little bit of low end booty with them in April.
 
#777
MASGAS...:hiding:

I'm looking forward to having $ to upgrade my living room rig. I was thinking 109, and then Mike re-vamped the 6's and that's got me thinking 2x6. By the time I have money to spare, Mike will probably have a mini-Flex goin' on. :cool:
 
#779
spiritbass said:
MASGAS...:hiding:

I'm looking forward to having $ to upgrade my living room rig. I was thinking 109, and then Mike re-vamped the 6's and that's got me thinking 2x6. By the time I have money to spare, Mike will probably have a mini-Flex goin' on. :cool:
Click to expand...

Yeah, that's the other thing about Mike, and this thread. He keeps coming up with cool, innovative stuff that sounds great. I've definitely had experiences of "ooh, and THAT sounds like something I've gotta have too!"
 
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