Didn't know those could be made in 4 Ohms. Hmm. Should kill with a small amp. I heard one of the early prototype 2x6s two years back -- haven't heard the latest 6"-based cabs, but they are by all accounts a substantial improvement -- and the articulation on that thing was stunning.
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Big E Speakers pt 3
- Thread starter john turner
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Didn't know those could be made in 4 Ohms. Hmm. Should kill with a small amp. I heard one of the early prototype 2x6s two years back -- haven't heard the latest 6"-based cabs, but they are by all accounts a substantial improvement -- and the articulation on that thing was stunning.
I've been obsessing over that little 26. I've decided to ship it as a 8 ohm cab. I tried it with a Walkabout and it drives it to top volume---no sweat.
Here's the deal. If you look at the actual impedance of many 8 ohm drivers---they can be quite low. Which winds up being ok as far as amps. Even an amp rated for a minimum impedance of 4 ohms is actually fine with it being lower. I checked through the Eminence catalog and their drivers that they call 8 ohms vary from 5.1 ohms to 7.2 ohms---with most on the lower end.
The OEM 8 ohm 6.5's are actually 5.24 ohms. So the two of them would be 2.62 ohms.This is not atypical. A 4 ohm minimum amp would still be fine with that, Here's the problem. In order for the 3's to be in balance with the 6's they need to be a bit lower impedance---the 3's aren't gaining the extra efficiency of the vortex loading of the 6's. So in order for the 3's to be in balance I'd have to use two 4 ohm 3's in parallel and have a 2 ohm impedance. I'm worried about this possibly presenting a problem for the amp.
Duke thinks it would likely be ok. I'm a little oogie about it. So as Coyote will be using a Walkabout I found one and tried it. Mesa is more conservative than many with power ratings. The Walkabout with 165 watts went a lot louder than my EA Doubler rated at 300 watts. I would be very comfortable with the output of the Walkabout with the 26. It drives it to top volume without distortion.
So I think it's a safer bet and will work really well. The 26 goes surprisingly loud and just as low as the 46.
Here's the deal. If you look at the actual impedance of many 8 ohm drivers---they can be quite low. Which winds up being ok as far as amps. Even an amp rated for a minimum impedance of 4 ohms is actually fine with it being lower. I checked through the Eminence catalog and their drivers that they call 8 ohms vary from 5.1 ohms to 7.2 ohms---with most on the lower end.
The OEM 8 ohm 6.5's are actually 5.24 ohms. So the two of them would be 2.62 ohms.This is not atypical. A 4 ohm minimum amp would still be fine with that, Here's the problem. In order for the 3's to be in balance with the 6's they need to be a bit lower impedance---the 3's aren't gaining the extra efficiency of the vortex loading of the 6's. So in order for the 3's to be in balance I'd have to use two 4 ohm 3's in parallel and have a 2 ohm impedance. I'm worried about this possibly presenting a problem for the amp.
Duke thinks it would likely be ok. I'm a little oogie about it. So as Coyote will be using a Walkabout I found one and tried it. Mesa is more conservative than many with power ratings. The Walkabout with 165 watts went a lot louder than my EA Doubler rated at 300 watts. I would be very comfortable with the output of the Walkabout with the 26. It drives it to top volume without distortion.
So I think it's a safer bet and will work really well. The 26 goes surprisingly loud and just as low as the 46.
If you still want the 4 ohm cab--I can do it. It will likely be fine.
Try the 8 ohmer--the speaker will fart out before the amp as I tried it.if you want the 4--no sweat.
I really want a 26 around for myself! Really nice with upright.
Try the 8 ohmer--the speaker will fart out before the amp as I tried it.if you want the 4--no sweat.
I really want a 26 around for myself! Really nice with upright.
Just to clarify Mike, it seems that you are refering to is the minimum impedance of a speaker. I have never seen a speaker with a constant impedance. It is important to note that most of Eminence's speakers have their minimum impedance in a range of between about 150 and 250Hz. Outside of that range their impedance rises at a steady uphill slope. What is called the nominal impedance actually only occurs at two frequencies, normally about 150 and 250Hz. Within that range the impedance is lower and outside it the impedance is higher. That frequency band varies from speaker to speaker so that is just an approximation but it is accurate for the 3012HO and 3012LF.
At the risk of venturing further into the weeds, and only because "more headroom is almost always better" let me see apples to apples here:
If the actual (or minimum) impedance of the 8ohm prototype is closer to 5, is it similarly lower for the 4ohm oem driver? Im not too worried about running lower impedance with the WA. Is there yet some understanding of the behavior of the MVW in regards to impedance?
If the actual (or minimum) impedance of the 8ohm prototype is closer to 5, is it similarly lower for the 4ohm oem driver? Im not too worried about running lower impedance with the WA. Is there yet some understanding of the behavior of the MVW in regards to impedance?
The MVW's behave pretty normally as far as impedance. Actually, the low impedance peak is lower than reflex designs by a bit.
Vince's point is what I'm referring to. The typical minimum impedance can be in the meat and potatoes range for bass---where the fundamentals and second harmonics live. (by the way---the 4 0hm 6.5 is 3.94 ohms) So with the 8 ohm version--if the minimum impedance of 5.24 ohms is divided by two the actual minimum impedance is 2.6 ohms. This seems low, but Jerry at Eminence says that they've never run into a problem---the amp manufacturers anticipate this.
The problem is that the Faital 3's need to be bit less than one ohm less to be in balance. So---if I use two of the 8 ohm mids in parallel I get 4 ohms. I pad them down to just under 7 ohms. This is a nice balance with the 6's.
To do the same with the two 8 ohm woofers in parallel I need to have the mids at a bit less than two ohms. Typically the mids and tweets are hotter than the woofers, but not with these.
The 26 with the two Faitals sounds really nice and balanced with music.
Okay. Seems like the production version will be the more ideally tuned version. Ill take the 8-ohm version then. Any chance i see it by Fridays gig? ;-)
I will not need a 46 down the road... I will not need a 46 down the road...
I will not need a 46 down the road... I will not need a 46 down the road...
I will get it out tomorrow. And again, if you feel that you want the 4 ohm version--- I can get one out no problem.
My gut tells me i shouldnt leave any watts on the table.
4 ohm, final answer. Done deal. Thanks again Mike.
4 ohm, final answer. Done deal. Thanks again Mike.
When I flipped the Reeves off standby this morning, I got two seconds of loud hum and crackle before the HT 3A fuse blew. Had to make a quick dash home for the Walkabout. The low end was a bit much, but after kicking the phase out, it was wonderful. The Walkabout had no problem filling the room and the sonic space not taken up by our missing drummer (in bed with allergies
).Interested to hear how this works out. I've been borrowing a friend's older (not sure which iteration) MAS 45 and playing around with it with my Walkabout. Haven't gotten to open it up yet, but initial impression is that it's a sweet pairing. I also, in a roundabout way, came into possession of nomatic's old 66 a little over a week ago -- it's out of town now, but early playing indicates that it will be a hammer. I haven't gotten to play the two cabs side-by-side yet. Will post more detailed impressions later.
On a related note, while there are many things I like about the Walkabout, I was close to getting rid of it. Less power than my other amps, and a low end that seemed to require a tight cab to stay under control at volume. Last week, at the encouragement of my guitarist brother, I tried something I never had before and swapped around a bunch of tubes (he had six or eight different kinds on hand) in the WA. I was surprised at how much of a difference they made, both in the V1 and V2 positions. Right now, I'm using two JJ ECC83s tubes (replacing the cheap Groove Tube/Sovteks that were in there before) and that's tightened the amp up considerably. Feels quicker, more articulate, and more controlled down low. Nice and even across the registers. Some other tubes showed promise, but these are cheap ($10-$15 new), readily available, and they made enough of a difference that the Walkabout's sticking around for now.
By the way, how many cab makers do you know that will track down one of the amp you're using to try with your cab? That's service!
Here's one for Mike or either of the Big Two.
Excerpted from the new website:
So...
With the 45/110, whether you hook it up via the crossover in the sub or run it full-range, your amp is still seeing a 4-Ohm load? That would be pretty cool, though my previous understanding was that full-range = 4 Ohm load, crossed-over = 8 Ohms. Has it always been this way, or is this something that's changed?
Is the 110 sub (including its crossover) now the same cab when ordered with any of the tops? I know that the actual cab and speaker are the same, but it's been my understanding that the crossover between sub and top in the 45/110 was different than in the 210 Flex modular, and maybe different again than in the 110 Flex + sub. (Mike, I think you said something to this effect awhile back -- forgive me if I misremember anything.) This makes sense to me, though I wonder now if you guys have managed to make the sub interchangeable, allowing exercises in excess like the following:
You have a modular 210 Flex, and a 45 for upright gigs. If you feel like it, you can put the sub from the 210 under the 45.
Finally, since a 2x6 will go about as loud as a 45, and it's been mentioned as nice for upright, would a 2x6+110sub make any sense?
Excerpted from the new website:
MAS-45/110 Combo
...The two cabinets can be powered individually with an amp with two outputs. The 45 can be connected to the 110s in parallel full-range for a combined 4 Ohm load allowing for maximum amplifier output. The subsequent low frequency overlap is perfect for delivering maximum punch. For a more aggressive sound with maximum output connect the 45 into the crossover port in the 110S module. This still presents a 4 Ohm load to your amp but allows the 45 to be driven harder... [emphasis mine]
MAS-45 module:
Impedance: 8 Ohms
RMS power: 400 Watts
AES power: 575 Watts.
MAS-110S module:
Impedance: 8 Ohms
RMS power: 400 Watts
AES power: 575 Watts
110 SUB
The MA-110S is the foundation of all the MAS modular systems. It can be added to almost any Bass Loudspeaker to provide greater low frequency support. The unit contains a passive crossover network with switchable contour control allowing for several configurations. The MAS-110S will allow full signal pass-through (parallel) to another loudspeaker. The switch on the jack plate can be placed into the ON position and a high pass filter is engaged to the output connection. This will allow the connected loudspeaker to be pushed harder with the MAS-110S handing the lowest frequencies...
Examples:
Add an MAS-110S to an MAS-110Flex for more bottom support in the Bright setting.
Add an MAS-110S to an MAS-210Mod for a modular version of the popular MAS-210Flex
Add an MAS-110S to an MAS-45 with the High Pass filter engaged for more volume and B string support
Impedance: 8 Ohms
RMS power: 400 Watts
AES power: 575 Watts
...The two cabinets can be powered individually with an amp with two outputs. The 45 can be connected to the 110s in parallel full-range for a combined 4 Ohm load allowing for maximum amplifier output. The subsequent low frequency overlap is perfect for delivering maximum punch. For a more aggressive sound with maximum output connect the 45 into the crossover port in the 110S module. This still presents a 4 Ohm load to your amp but allows the 45 to be driven harder... [emphasis mine]
MAS-45 module:
Impedance: 8 Ohms
RMS power: 400 Watts
AES power: 575 Watts.
MAS-110S module:
Impedance: 8 Ohms
RMS power: 400 Watts
AES power: 575 Watts
110 SUB
The MA-110S is the foundation of all the MAS modular systems. It can be added to almost any Bass Loudspeaker to provide greater low frequency support. The unit contains a passive crossover network with switchable contour control allowing for several configurations. The MAS-110S will allow full signal pass-through (parallel) to another loudspeaker. The switch on the jack plate can be placed into the ON position and a high pass filter is engaged to the output connection. This will allow the connected loudspeaker to be pushed harder with the MAS-110S handing the lowest frequencies...
Examples:
Add an MAS-110S to an MAS-110Flex for more bottom support in the Bright setting.
Add an MAS-110S to an MAS-210Mod for a modular version of the popular MAS-210Flex
Add an MAS-110S to an MAS-45 with the High Pass filter engaged for more volume and B string support
Impedance: 8 Ohms
RMS power: 400 Watts
AES power: 575 Watts
So...
With the 45/110, whether you hook it up via the crossover in the sub or run it full-range, your amp is still seeing a 4-Ohm load? That would be pretty cool, though my previous understanding was that full-range = 4 Ohm load, crossed-over = 8 Ohms. Has it always been this way, or is this something that's changed?
Is the 110 sub (including its crossover) now the same cab when ordered with any of the tops? I know that the actual cab and speaker are the same, but it's been my understanding that the crossover between sub and top in the 45/110 was different than in the 210 Flex modular, and maybe different again than in the 110 Flex + sub. (Mike, I think you said something to this effect awhile back -- forgive me if I misremember anything.) This makes sense to me, though I wonder now if you guys have managed to make the sub interchangeable, allowing exercises in excess like the following:
You have a modular 210 Flex, and a 45 for upright gigs. If you feel like it, you can put the sub from the 210 under the 45.
Finally, since a 2x6 will go about as loud as a 45, and it's been mentioned as nice for upright, would a 2x6+110sub make any sense?
No prob. Duke thinks it will be fine. I'm just being paranoid.
It will go out tomorrow--in 4 ohms. If there are any issues you can swap it for an 8 ohm version.
Ok
When you run the 110 sub with the 45 fully crossed over---low pass to the sub--high pass to the 45---it's one big 8 ohm cab.
If you run the 45 full range with the sub---one big 4 ohm cab.
I was thinking the same thing---the 26 is a great upright speaker and would pair up with the 110 sub just fine.
Steve is working on a crossover re-do so that the 110 sub can be used as the bottom of a 110 or 210 Flex--but also function with the 45 or 26. Should be done this week--I have a 210 Flex Modular to get out!
- Nov 24, 2008
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- Owner & designer, AudioKinesis; Auth. mfg, Big E (Home Audio only)
Imo the high-pass filter in series with the little Faital cones will keep you from having a nasty impedance dip anywhere that would be a potential problem for a bass cab. So in other words, in this case I think the "real world" situation will be more benign than one would expect from looking at it "on paper".
Thanks for chiming in Duke, though i will be putting both an e-cello and playback, and hearing what the rest of the band sounds like through it. (moderate volume acoustic band)
That's what I was thinking. But then there's something I'm not getting. Is it possible to run the 110 full-range and the 45 hi-passed -- and would that then present a 4-Ohm load to the amp? Is that what's referred to where it says, "...connect the 45 into the crossover port in the 110S module.This still presents a 4 Ohm load to your amp but allows the 45 to be driven harder" ? I assume that plugging the 45 into the "crossover port" means it's hi-passed -- or am I missing something there, too?
Both cabs full range = 4 Ohms. You can run two cables from the amp or pass the signal through the cab in parallel, but they should be functionally the same. Is there a third way?
Cool. Would the effect be much different than pairing with a 45?
Wow! I feel like Gottfried Leibnez. Royalties? No? How about a hamburger?
- Apr 3, 2003
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- Editor-in-Chief, Bass Gear Magazine
I've rolled tubes in a lot of preamps and heads, and IME/IMHO, the WalkAbout is one of the more responsive amps/pres out there when it comes to swapping tubes.
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