I understand. I unfortunately, have not experienced that. I'm sure your stuff would rival my rig. And a super compact would likely be a great alternative for me. Please understand I am very grateful for your input and direction. But part of the solution is to keep it from becoming cost prohibitive. Which is why I thought finding an alternate cab driver for the low-end would be the most cost-effective solution.not a full range cabinet or driver.
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Blew my 12".....AGAIN!!!!!
- Thread starter pb9717
- Start date
+1, considering the OPs problem the Delta 12LFC makes no sense at all. I can see that recommendation from someone who doesn't know that the thermal power rating is almost meaningless, that its the displacement limited power that matters, but a speaker company owner should know better.
The super compact single 12 cab is a fine choice . Unfortunately the $900 price tag is cost prohibitive at this time.
Agreed.....now what?
Return the delta 12LFC and.......?
18 pages and no clear solution except ...go full range? Which I'm not doing.
Oh boy. I need a drink.
I just gave you the solution, it's the 3012LF. It has over three times the actual useful power handling of the Delta 12LF, or the Kappa Pro 12. A few others did too. There are some other speakers with even more capability, from B&C, 18Sound and others, but the price is even higher. You've also been advised more than once to learn how to use speaker modeling software, so that you can know what any particular speaker is really capable of, instead of relying on opinions that are mostly coming from guys who don't know any more about speakers than you do, if that much. It may take some time, but its not brain surgery, and considering how much money you've already wasted would be worth the time and effort.
I've used a 3012LF (in a properly designed box) as a sub for an outdoor playback system, band passed at 40 - 120. It held it's own, but with a lot more power than the OP has available for it.
I'm currently experimenting with biamping my bass rig. High passing the 3012LFs at ~40 and crossing to small format mid drivers in the 600 - 750 range. Still experimenting with frequencies and slopes, but I'm quite pleased with the results I've gotten so far. So to those who say biamping a bass rig doesn't work, I say: Pffft!
I'm currently experimenting with biamping my bass rig. High passing the 3012LFs at ~40 and crossing to small format mid drivers in the 600 - 750 range. Still experimenting with frequencies and slopes, but I'm quite pleased with the results I've gotten so far. So to those who say biamping a bass rig doesn't work, I say: Pffft!
The heads on the market that allow bi-amping are the worst feature ever put on a head. Clearly a marketing call to sell more heads. Why is it a bad feature? Because most of the people who will use it are those that have inadequate or inappropriate cabs and not enough technical chops to pull it off.
Bi-amping works if you use a sub designed as a sub. Horn loaded boxes (often referred to as bass bins) are common, but there are direct radiator subs as well.
Bi-amping also works if you use a top that is designed as a dedicated top, not merely a full range cab you have laying around. Many tops are arrayed boxes, but in any case, it needs to be engineered as a top.
Bi-amping also works when the crossover frequency is chosen both in regard to dispersion characteristics and the cutoff frequency of the top, not just the cutoff frequency of the top. This requires making and reading polar coordinate reading with an SPL meter, or using guidelines created by the manufacturer.
In short, leave bi-amping to the PA guys unless you have background in live/pro audio. And in that case, those guys use rackmounted active crossovers and multiple or dual channel power amps.
Now, you seem to diss a full range cab as an unacceptable solution. Yet 99% of bass backline gear is that way. Seems to work well for them. Choose a cab that suits your playing style and sound goals, add the right head, dial in purposeful EQ settings, and you are good to go! It's more cost effective and easier to set up too! (For this discussion, a full range cab can also be those that naturally roll off at 5kHz, not just those that go up to 16 or 20kHz)
Now, you mentioned you only have $500 to work with. You are in a tough spot because you wasted all that money replacing woofers in an inadequate system. You might want to consider to stop throwing good money after bad. You are also in a tough spot because you only have 350 watts to work with. That's about the minimum threshold for live rock with a loud drummer. You really need to be at the 500 watt minimum to get a head that will deliver clean power with enough headroom and you're not clipping all over the place or having to drive it wide open all the time. What 410 do you have? If it's a good one like an Eden, SWR, I would use my $500 and get a better head. If your 410 is an entry level cab, then I suggest going on CL and looking at some used Peavey heads and cabs.
Hopefully all the information in this thread will help you realize that to bi-amp properly and garner any benefits to outweigh the associated costs and additional gear burdens, you need sufficient knowledge and more money to work with than you currently have. The Fish bassist and John Entwistle pulled it off because they have engineers and large wallets. And Criley can pull it off because he's Criley. For the rest of us mere mortals, use the KISS* principle and get a full range cab.
(* Keep It Simple Stupid)
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CosmicRay
Supporting Member
Go with the Eminence 3012LF (and an HPF filter wouldn't hurt either) BUT the speaker needs a good box, like a Greenboy.....
Or just go full range. I've tried a bi-amp approach years back, but you get more pants flapping results with a full range set-up.
imo naturally.
Or just go full range. I've tried a bi-amp approach years back, but you get more pants flapping results with a full range set-up.
imo naturally.
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I have a 4x8, ..I do not have anywhere near $500 to spend. More like under $200,and that's the high side. You guys have made your point over and over. Go full range, go full range. I'm out of breathe and argument. I like my biamp system, I love the sound it makes. I'm not going full range. Not getting rid of two cabs to get one.
I also have no desire to become an audio engineer. Design boxes, learn software. Call me lazy. I leave the expertise to the experts. I know, every expert says, again. Go full range. No Thank you. Stubborn, yea, stupid, probably yea. I know what I'm hearing, I know what I like, and I'm trying to fix a simple problem. I have 450wRMS @ 4 Ohms to do it.
Dave at Avatar stated the Delta 12LFC was the ceramic version of the Kappalite 3012 LF, graphs say different , I get it. Will the difference in performance be worth $110 More than I've already spent? Don't know.
We can't keep referring to the 5 drivers I've replaced over the past 7 years. They were gigged, thoroughly. Many times used full range. Drivers die, especially when it's a single 12 with a 5 string. It's not like if I had a 3012 in there that it would have lasted 7 years of gigging.
I can imagine, once I've made the avatar a useable cab again, that I will look for a more durable solution. Maybe full range even. ( but not likely) ...But everyone wants me to "get rid of all my gear and start again. it's ridiculous.
This was a simple question that's turned into a $#@!storm of opinions, with lotsa a tangents ( cone dust cover repair?....ok).
Forgive my tone ( no pun intended ) just frustrated.
It seems you have champage taste on a beer budget. Plus, it is not normal to be replacing as many drivers as you have done regardless of how times gigged. IF you had a proper well engineered cab with a 3012LF, it would have been no problem gigging it with a fiver for 7 years running the original driver providing you weren't beating the snot out of it. Drivers are not supposed to be a disposable item. In your case, you're obviously doing something very wrong like driving it past what it was designed for. Your rig is totally inadequate for your expectations, plain and simple. You need a head with more watts, and a cab that can generate more SPL than what you currently have.
You can continue on your present course and continue to blow drivers, or you can take these suggestions seriously. Again, the lowest cost solution is to get a better head and a full range cab on the used market. Just because you want to bi-amp, doesn't mean you can bi-amp. Reality can be a bitter pill, sorry to be the bearer of that.
You can continue on your present course and continue to blow drivers, or you can take these suggestions seriously. Again, the lowest cost solution is to get a better head and a full range cab on the used market. Just because you want to bi-amp, doesn't mean you can bi-amp. Reality can be a bitter pill, sorry to be the bearer of that.
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The only way around this, that I can reasonably see, is to spend time with a friendly soundman, and see if there's some way to mic this configuration...
If you don't have a great PA system, it won't work, but if you do, and can tame some of the phase issues that invariably arise from using two mics on bass gear, you might be ok.
But, the mics required aren't going to be cheap.
If you don't have a great PA system, it won't work, but if you do, and can tame some of the phase issues that invariably arise from using two mics on bass gear, you might be ok.
But, the mics required aren't going to be cheap.
The drivers are dying because you aren't using them properly!
I have NEVER had a driver die. And that includes a 3012LF that's still going strong after 6 years of being pounded with 5 and 6 string bass guitars.
Simple thought: If you will refuse to take people's advice, don't ask for it.
The question I asked was " will a car audio sub woofer driver provide the durability the pro audio drivers I've been blowing don't seem to have"
I got my answer.
So using your logic, I can never ask a question if I'm not happy with the answer.
Shure SM57 mics are the proven road warriors. Not expensive either, and most PA guys already have a box of them.
No, it means don't keep asking the same question and eventually expecting results that suit you.
Don't know why the head is an issue. 450w@4 ohms Rms is pretty good. Hopefully good enough to run a sub woofer or like.
I'm fine with hearing the bad news. I will likely retire the avatar as an excellent full range cabinet and look for an alternate solution .
What can I say? I'm stubborn. It just seems unfathomable that there is no cabinet/driver combination that will provide the lower half of this solution. Very hard to accept.
I hear you. And everyone that agrees with you. I just need some time to digest. if I'm able.
And on a separate note, sometimes it's a good thing to not except everyone's answer. That's what inspires change, progress, and advancement. I really hope I can come up with something That answers the initial question.
I didn't. The difference between what you have and full range is that you've got two cabs instead of one, an active crossover instead of passive, and two power amps instead of one. I'm not saying what you have is ideal, it isn't. Four eights and one twelve is an unbalanced rig. Two twelves and two eights would be much better. But to say that your rig won't work just isn't true, you just need to use a twelve that stands a chance, and so far you haven't.
Every spec says different. The two aren't even remotely close. Even a schooled amateur like me knows better, why Dave doesn't is inexplicable.
Mine has, and it's a regular 3012, not even an LF.
