Blew my 12".....AGAIN!!!!!

[Downunderwonder]

Ok, this thread has been beat to death and I haven't read all the way to the end. But I just wanted to hit on some of the more salient points.

A sub driver in the avatar cab may see marginal gains, but will probably still get blown by the op overworking it.

A sub driver in a new custom cab would fare much better but likely still fall short of what it sounds like the OP wants. Combined with bumping up the xo frequency (to say 150, but experiment), and probably bringing down the overall LF volume on the amp, it might be enough to get him there (but would be an expensive experiment if it failed).

A 15" sub driver in a custom cab optimized for low frequencies is the best bet for getting the amount of low frequency volume the op needs to match the 4x8. In terms of area, a 4x8 is a little bit more than a 15, and almost twice a 12 (let's not get into the esoteric and arcane arguments about cone depth and all that nonsense which lets be honest, doesn't make much difference in typical real world application we're dealing with). So to match it with a 12, you need an extremely high excursion 12 to make up the difference, vs an average 15. And the bonus is the 15 will almost certainly have a lower fs (what you want in a sub) and higher power handling (by probably 100w or more) than an equivalent 12. My guess is you could get a 15 sub cab that weighed in at 50 pounds or less. The downside is it would be completely worthless without the other cab, and is still going to cost a good chunk of change, and you still won't have a small gig solution (just 100+ pounds of big club stomping power). Plus the sub cab will have limited resale value since it's such a niche piece (more likely to find someone who wants to use it as a PA sub than with bass).

***

Before I continue, what happened to the 4 kappas and the most recent blown driver? Did you trash them like an idiot, sell them as blown, or do you still have them? If you still have them, they could be reconed and repurposed in new cabs. Or you could sell them to fund whatever you end up going with. 2 2x12 3 way cabs could be commissioned for probably a reasonable price and I bet they could in in the sub 60 pound range, sound pretty good, and certainly be plenty loud.

But if you didn't want to do that, I would sell those old drivers for someone else to recone and use, and then probably commission 2 3 way "super 12" cabs. 1 should have enough low end for small gigs, and 2 should get you by for bigger ones. If you still somehow needed more grunt, you could run those 2 cabs with the 4x8, but I doubt that would be necessary.

***

As far as the driver size debate, come on guys, are we still arguing about this? Driver size is not the be all/end all of parameters, and you can engineer a lot into a small or bigger driver. But size OBVIOUSLY and CLEARLY makes a difference if not compensated for with a LOT of design work. a 15 compared to a 12 compared to a 10 compared to an 8, etc... is going to have higher sensitivity, lower Fs, higher xmax, etc... It's not a rule, it's just a trend. As in, if you average all those parameters for each size class, those things hold true. Don't take my word for it, go look at a bunch of driver specs yourself.

And then just think about it with some common sense. How much xmax can you design into a 5" driver? Because that's how you make up for the tiny surface area so your displacement measures up and you can get some low end going. 15mm? 25? For a single 5 ti match an average 15, it would need to have a 55mm xmax. That's about the radius of the cone. Just think of how fast it would have to be moving to travel 55mm and how much power and control that would take. But you probably have some tiny 1-1.5" vc which can handle like 50-100w max.

So in the end, whatever you can engineer an 8 or a 10 to do (aside from high frequencies), you can design a 12 or a 15 to do better and more so. Because you're not trying to fight physics as hard. Sure, anything from 8s to 18s is "feasible" for bass in reasonable numbers (sorry, 16 5s that cost 2500 bucks and do almost what 2 15s for 500 bucks would do is not really "feasible"). But certain things are just way way way easier with the appropriately sized driver. On the other hand, there are some things that happen with a bunch of drivers that you don't get with 1 or 2. It just depends on what your design goals are, but for low end, when budget is a factor, it's hard to go wrong by going bigger.

What is the benefit of raising the crossover? As I see it there is nothing but more trouble. Please try making me see my error or else recant.

 

[Munjibunga]

... I've been using it as the low end of a biAmp setup with only frequencies below 100Khz going to it ...

There's your answer. You're asking the speaker for more low frequency content than it can deliver. User error.

 

[Omega Monkey]

Raising the crossover means you're going to be getting more than just a low rumble from the 12, and will bring it closer to matching the 4x8 (which will in turn be getting less low mids). This is basic stuff.

If you have a home theater sub you can try it our yourself. Leave the level control in one spot and slowly raise the xo frequency. The general effect is that it's going to get a lot louder as you add in more low mids. So now to match the mains (in the OPs case the 4x8), the urge will be to turn down the sub to compensate. Between every system and every listener, they may be a different "sweet spot" that sounds "right". In my home stereo, I always set the xo on the sub low as it will go (I think that's probably about 75 or so), because I just want to get that extra weight in the sound, and my main speakers are big vintage 12" 3 ways that are fine and dandy down to probably 50-60Hz, but below that they just don't have that modern low end. But somebody that has tiny modern satellite speakers might want the sub coming up towards 150 or so to fill in that whole low mids range.

But in the OPs case, I think his best bet is to either start from scratch with some good 3 way cabs with lf drivers, or at least get a 15" sub made. In which case the xo frequency will just be a matter of whatever sounds good and works well with his system basically.

 

[Downunderwonder]

Raising the crossover means you're going to be getting more than just a low rumble from the 12, and will bring it closer to matching the 4x8 (which will in turn be getting less low mids). This is basic stuff.

yes it's basic and basically you're wrong. The 4x8 has way more output in the low end of its range than the 12. Matching them is impossible without neutering the power sent to the 4x8 and LOWERING the achievable sum of the rig whatever 12 cab is employed, save possibly giant BFM folded horn ones too large to consider.

 

[crguti]

Last night, my 12'' was blew. I feel relief now

 

[pb9717]

Ok, this thread has been beat to death and I haven't read all the way to the end. But I just wanted to hit on some of the more salient points.

A sub driver in the avatar cab may see marginal gains, but will probably still get blown by the op overworking it.

A sub driver in a new custom cab would fare much better but likely still fall short of what it sounds like the OP wants. Combined with bumping up the xo frequency (to say 150, but experiment), and probably bringing down the overall LF volume on the amp, it might be enough to get him there (but would be an expensive experiment if it failed).

A 15" sub driver in a custom cab optimized for low frequencies is the best bet for getting the amount of low frequency volume the op needs to match the 4x8. In terms of area, a 4x8 is a little bit more than a 15, and almost twice a 12 (let's not get into the esoteric and arcane arguments about cone depth and all that nonsense which lets be honest, doesn't make much difference in typical real world application we're dealing with). So to match it with a 12, you need an extremely high excursion 12 to make up the difference, vs an average 15. And the bonus is the 15 will almost certainly have a lower fs (what you want in a sub) and higher power handling (by probably 100w or more) than an equivalent 12. My guess is you could get a 15 sub cab that weighed in at 50 pounds or less. The downside is it would be completely worthless without the other cab, and is still going to cost a good chunk of change, and you still won't have a small gig solution (just 100+ pounds of big club stomping power). Plus the sub cab will have limited resale value since it's such a niche piece (more likely to find someone who wants to use it as a PA sub than with bass).

***

Before I continue, what happened to the 4 kappas and the most recent blown driver? Did you trash them like an idiot, sell them as blown, or do you still have them?

Said the idiot " I trashed them"

 

[pb9717]

Last night, my 12'' was blew. I feel relief now

Welcome to the fray

 

[pb9717]

@pb9717 . . . when you get your rig up and running again is there any possibility of a sound clip so we can hear the tone you're getting? I'm very interested in the tone you're going for and maybe some others would be too.

At one point I was using a GK 800RB to biamp an Avatar 210 and a Mesa 115 Diesel cab and I really liked the way it sounded! The Avatar had the Deltas in there that didn't have much low end at all. It was almost like a guitar amp for the highs and then the 115 did pretty well with the lows...crossed over around 200hz.

Absolutely..

 

[pb9717]

There's your answer. You're asking the speaker for more low frequency content than it can deliver. User error.

Agreed...have moved to a low freq driver .

 

[David Jayne]

Raising the crossover means you're going to be getting more than just a low rumble from the 12, and will bring it closer to matching the 4x8 (which will in turn be getting less low mids). This is basic stuff.

If you have a home theater sub you can try it our yourself. Leave the level control in one spot and slowly raise the xo frequency. The general effect is that it's going to get a lot louder as you add in more low mids. So now to match the mains (in the OPs case the 4x8), the urge will be to turn down the sub to compensate.

My original thinking as well a until I thought about it some more. In this case, by raising the xo the OP will be removing low mid/ high bass content from the other cab. I'm not seeing how that's a gain.

 

[Roland GR 88]

All I can add is good luck to the OP. I ran a bi-amp rig for a couple years and after reading this thread I realize I did it all wrong but boy, did it sound lovely.

 

[Omega Monkey]

Again, because it balances them out more.

But also again, I think the OP is basically wasting his time and money unless he either goes for a 15" sub, or 2 matching 3 way cabs.

 

[mbelue]

I really hate how bi-amping is represented by bass players. It just makes us look dumb.

The only amp your average bass player should be bi-amping is a GK 800rb. GK was smart enough to keep the hi side of the amplifier @100w so the 300w low side would have even a chance to keep up.
Your bx1500 may very well be a great amplifier, but it is a stupid choice for simple biamping.
The same goes for every biamp head with identical poweramps, Ampeg, Peavey, etc. Every single one is a loaded gun pointed right at our speakers.

We bass players just never pick the right cabinets to do the job. Generally it ain't our fault. Wet go to mom and pop music stores with our hard earned cash and get bad advice. Or we ask a guitarist, and get bad advice. We need education, and we need it simplified so one short conversation can lead folks to the proper path to learn something.

You can't approach a subject as deep as biamping with the plan to ignore all the details. The proof is right here in this thread:
1. The OP tried it, sounded great till a driver blew.
2. The OP went out and blew the rest of his money on the wrong drivers before learning the root of his problem.
3. The OP cannot affort to correctly solve his problem because of point number 2.

It's just sad. The OP wanted to do something awesome, and dammit he has every right to, and nobody was there to lead him in the right direction.

This whole blasted industry really needs to grow up. Start educating customers instead of milking their wallets with operator error. Give their customers reasonable expectations of the usage and output of their products.

To top things off it's embarrassing that Talkbass can't discuss this without bickering, but we've a whole boatload of misinformed bass players. Bass players that don't know they are contributing to the problem. Bass players that don't know they've been mislead.


There is nothing wrong with being ignorant. Nothing to be embarrassed by or ashamed of. Use that moment to learn something instead of just repeating "what you've heard."
There is no way the OP replaced those 5 blown drivers in a vacuum. Someone gave him bad advice. Don't be that guy. Please. We can and should all be friends here. Friends don't let friends blow up their cabinets in ignorance.

 

[CL400Peavey]

Gentlemen, I spoke with Dave at avatar speakers today. He recommended the eminence delta 12 LFC. I will likely add a high pass filter so that I don't blow it. Driver is capable of 1100 W peak 500 RMS. As the carvin puts out 450W @4ohms,it should be a nice match. I'm hoping to get at least a few years out of it. Will also experiment with the ports to see if I can change the sound. In looking at the fearful cabinet design for thier 12 inch sub it is remarkably similar to the avatar. And also uses the same Delta 12 LFC. Hopefully this will support this configuration. Thank you everyone for all your input.

WHAT????
You need to look again! And actually pay attention to what you're looking at this time.

Yes... The fEARful plans are pretty clear on what drivers are specced.

Dave at Avatar stated the Delta 12LFC was the ceramic version of the Kappalite 3012 LF,

One of the reasons I would never recommend an avatar cab is situations like this. The more I hear representatives from the company give tech advice, the more I realize they dont really have a grasp on the products they are selling.

We can't keep referring to the 5 drivers I've replaced over the past 7 years. They were gigged, thoroughly. Many times used full range. Drivers die, especially when it's a single 12 with a 5 string. It's not like if I had a 3012 in there that it would have lasted 7 years of gigging.

A 3012LF in the right box would have lasted and been just fine. I have a pair of 3015LF's that I hit with way more power than you use, and they have been just fine for a couple years.

 

[agedhorse]

Another option that would have a better chance of holding up and delivering adequate SPL is a 212, possibly even with the Delta 12Lf's (high passed at 40Hz)

 

[CL400Peavey]

Another option that would have a better chance of holding up and delivering adequate SPL is a 212, possibly even with the Delta 12Lf's (high passed at 40Hz)

This goes back to the "too little rig for the gig" responses in the first 1-3 pages. I think the OP has made clear that he isnt going to go about this in the practical way.

 

[Coolhandjjl]

.....

To top things off it's embarrassing that Talkbass can't discuss this without bickering, but we've a whole boatload of misinformed bass players. Bass players that don't know they are contributing to the problem. Bass players that don't know they've been mislead.


There is nothing wrong with being ignorant. Nothing to be embarrassed by or ashamed of. Use that moment to learn something instead of just repeating "what you've heard."
There is no way the OP replaced those 5 blown drivers in a vacuum. Someone gave him bad advice. Don't be that guy. Please. We can and should all be friends here. Friends don't let friends blow up their cabinets in ignorance.

There has been quite a bit of factual information here, yet the OP was initially hesitant to believe it. But as in anything, any consumer has to do a bit of work to separate the wheat from the chaff. All in all, I find this website very informative and helpful. Without it, I'd be set adrift. But I agree with your basic premise, the bassist is easily misled by people who don't really know what they are talking about whether it be a salesperson, fellow bassist, sound guy, etc.

It all boils down to being careful who you take advice from in all walks of life.

 

[One Drop]

Have you ever heard of Altec Lansing "Voice of the theatre" speakers? My father bought the drivers in the early 70's and made the cabs. One of the best sounding speakers I've heard.

Lol but good idea..thanks. Someone told me too use a vacuum cleaner. Get as close as you can without removing the cone.

That's exactly what my father did, and we had a Revox reel to reel deck and hundreds of tapes, him and his friends would record each other's. records and those borrowed from record libraries. I grew up spoiled by great sound and spent countless hours listening to everything on great Sennheiser headphones. The late '60s and 70's was a beautiful time for music as do many people had good sound systems. We've gone backwards in a big way these days, a lot of people grow up never having heard good balanced sound in a room.

 

[Bigbri]

There has been quite a bit of factual information here, yet the OP was initially hesitant to believe it. But as in anything, any consumer has to do a bit of work to separate the wheat from the chaff. All in all, I find this website very informative and helpful. Without it, I'd be set adrift. But I agree with your basic premise, the bassist is easily misled by people who don't really know what they are talking about whether it be a salesperson, fellow bassist, sound guy, etc.

It all boils down to being careful who you take advice from in all walks of life.

That's exactly what my father did, and we had a Revox reel to reel deck and hundreds of tapes, him and his friends would record each other's. records and those borrowed from record libraries. I grew up spoiled by great sound and spent countless hours listening to everything on great Sennheiser headphones. The late '60s and 70's was a beautiful time for music as do many people had good sound systems. We've gone backwards in a big way these days, a lot of people grow up never having heard good balanced sound in a room.

Ya he always made his own stuff. Heathkit etc...
I can tell you it's nice to have headphones today that produce decent bass. I have a pair of AKG K240's and they sound great but very expensive and I wouldn't say they have "extra bass." I remember listening to Rush, cranking the bass, and blowing just about every pair in sight.

 

[Bigbri]

There has been quite a bit of factual information here, yet the OP was initially hesitant to believe it. But as in anything, any consumer has to do a bit of work to separate the wheat from the chaff. All in all, I find this website very informative and helpful. Without it, I'd be set adrift. But I agree with your basic premise, the bassist is easily misled by people who don't really know what they are talking about whether it be a salesperson, fellow bassist, sound guy, etc.

It all boils down to being careful who you take advice from in all walks of life.

I don't know what is meant by "in a vacuum." I was the one who asked about that. Some speakers with the dust caps pushed in. i was just confirming that I heard for a long time that a vacuum would work to get them back out. Someone said to put a sock over the hose which was good advice. Anyway, I find 99.99% on here are extremely helpfull and mature, which is good enough for me. There's always one in every crowd no matter where you go. Sales people I don't listen too unless they're experts or whatever. I hate being convinced to buy something that someone can't sell.