Ok.... I understand.
Will likely return the delta and go with the 3012. It'll be lighter too. Bonus. Jus gonna need to add another $100 to the solution
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Blew my 12".....AGAIN!!!!!
- Thread starter pb9717
- Start date
Ok.... I understand.
Will likely return the delta and go with the 3012. It'll be lighter too. Bonus. Jus gonna need to add another $100 to the solution
- Feb 12, 2006
- 61,038
- 5
- 220,974
- Disclosures
- Development Engineer-Mesa Boogie, Development Engineer-Genzler (pedals), Product Support-Genz Benz
Drivers do not die like you say. 5 drivers in 7 years is, frankly, pretty mind blowing. I owned many large touring type PA systems (hundreds of drivers) over the past 35 years, doing thousands of shows and I don't think I lost 5 drivers.
The right tools for the job, operated within the appropriate limits is how it's done.
The right tools for the job, operated within the appropriate limits is how it's done.
And the other bit of news though is that even if you went with the 3012lf sub, you would only need a single 8" to keep up with it.
So, even if you settle your low cab dilemma, you are still carrying around a 4X8 cab to do the work of one.
So, as other have stated - if your going to bi-amp it is best to have the right tools for the job.
If the OP runs his x-over point up to the 750~900Hz range, that would work well. Even just one Alphalite 6" would probably do it.
However, I don't know what the bi-amp range on the OP's head is. But when you cross as low as the 100Hz range, the top has to do a lot of work, beyond the reach of ordinary mid drivers, which usually are lucky to go as low as 500Hz or so. Tops that go down to 125Hz or so are typically an expensive choice, more than just a single 8" or 6" driver. Almost becoming a full range cab of its own.
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alexclaber
Commercial User
We started production in 2008 and have sold well over a thousand cabs, with the majority being 1x12"s. Loads of customers playing 5-string, some tuning lower still. Plenty using very powerful amps. I can count the total number of blown/failed drivers (excepting warranty replacements due to manufacturing faults) in all that time without running out of fingers. I expect many of our cabs to outlast me (and I'm not old!)
I think it says a lot about the durability of good speakers when used appropriately that Eminence offer 7 year warranties on their drivers in the USA.
Be warned that there is still a chance of blowing a 3012LF if your 4x8" is loud enough to mask warning distortion from either the 12" or the half of the amp that's pushing it, so you could drive that side of the power amp well into clipping and cause thermal driver failure.
Biamping is great for PA systems, studio monitors, hi-fi, etc and it can certainly sound very good for bass - but with bass guitar it also comes with a whole load of complications, inefficiencies and risks. The GK approach is a good one but as you've found, crossing over in the PA sub to mid-bass area (80-150Hz) is a real gamble unless you keep the volume right down or use an overspecced rig.
Agedhorse speaks the truth. The first time a driver blows, a reasonable and prudent person would send it to the manufacturer to see what gives. There are just two reason why. Manufacturers defect or user error. I think the OP is coming around now.
Alex is right-on. To make a bi-amp bass guitar rig that can outperform a full range cab requires specific technical skills, specialized gear, and with all that, lots more money.
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I didn't say "vented". The article I read said "The SVT cab is tuned to drop off at 55 hz." Presumably the interior space of each sealed 210 will give you what you need. I find it odd that the one of the most awesome cabs ever made is pretty much the only sealed one.
You shouldn't buy any more amps cause your gonna keep popping them
Buy an acoustic bass
Buy an acoustic bass
you're welcome
You don't want 3012 unless you meant 3012LF. Big difference.
The graph from MrJames shows power handling bottoming out right where you want a big 80hz for the guts of your low E. At a guess you can get 250w from one channel of your amp into 8 ohm. He might be kind enough to project what dB level might come from that. It would tear up the driver you ordered.
The graph from MrJames shows power handling bottoming out right where you want a big 80hz for the guts of your low E. At a guess you can get 250w from one channel of your amp into 8 ohm. He might be kind enough to project what dB level might come from that. It would tear up the driver you ordered.
Come on Bro you’ve been a member long enough to know about Talk Bass humour. Don’t be so touchy.
Fair enough. Bygones.Come on Bro you’ve been a member long enough to know about Talk Bass humour. Don’t be so touchy.
Saw Ed Freidlands review of the fearless 112. Seems like the sound would rival my 2 cabs, be lighter, and durable , because I'll, of course, be sensible regarding volume and EQ. It'll just take quite a while to muster a grand for it.
Thx again all.
Thx again all.
If you're handy, you can build a fEARful kit for less. Speakerhardware.com sells pre-cut flatpacks, or you can save even more and cut the panels from a sheet of plywood yourself. If you are playing with a guitarist who knows no bounds volume-wise, the FEARLESS F115 or FEARful 15/6 (or 15/6/1) will give you a bit more dBs of output.
The original fEARfuls have similar performance to the newer FEARLESS cabs.
Occasionally, these come up for sale here in the classifieds.
The original fEARfuls have similar performance to the newer FEARLESS cabs.
Occasionally, these come up for sale here in the classifieds.
Granted it's the Chevrolet of mics, but since most PA systems hi-pass around 60Hz anyway, not a problem. National touring rigs often use those to mic Ampeg 810s.
Ok, this thread has been beat to death and I haven't read all the way to the end. But I just wanted to hit on some of the more salient points.
A sub driver in the avatar cab may see marginal gains, but will probably still get blown by the op overworking it.
A sub driver in a new custom cab would fare much better but likely still fall short of what it sounds like the OP wants. Combined with bumping up the xo frequency (to say 150, but experiment), and probably bringing down the overall LF volume on the amp, it might be enough to get him there (but would be an expensive experiment if it failed).
A 15" sub driver in a custom cab optimized for low frequencies is the best bet for getting the amount of low frequency volume the op needs to match the 4x8. In terms of area, a 4x8 is a little bit more than a 15, and almost twice a 12 (let's not get into the esoteric and arcane arguments about cone depth and all that nonsense which lets be honest, doesn't make much difference in typical real world application we're dealing with). So to match it with a 12, you need an extremely high excursion 12 to make up the difference, vs an average 15. And the bonus is the 15 will almost certainly have a lower fs (what you want in a sub) and higher power handling (by probably 100w or more) than an equivalent 12. My guess is you could get a 15 sub cab that weighed in at 50 pounds or less. The downside is it would be completely worthless without the other cab, and is still going to cost a good chunk of change, and you still won't have a small gig solution (just 100+ pounds of big club stomping power). Plus the sub cab will have limited resale value since it's such a niche piece (more likely to find someone who wants to use it as a PA sub than with bass).
***
Before I continue, what happened to the 4 kappas and the most recent blown driver? Did you trash them like an idiot, sell them as blown, or do you still have them? If you still have them, they could be reconed and repurposed in new cabs. Or you could sell them to fund whatever you end up going with. 2 2x12 3 way cabs could be commissioned for probably a reasonable price and I bet they could in in the sub 60 pound range, sound pretty good, and certainly be plenty loud.
But if you didn't want to do that, I would sell those old drivers for someone else to recone and use, and then probably commission 2 3 way "super 12" cabs. 1 should have enough low end for small gigs, and 2 should get you by for bigger ones. If you still somehow needed more grunt, you could run those 2 cabs with the 4x8, but I doubt that would be necessary.
***
As far as the driver size debate, come on guys, are we still arguing about this? Driver size is not the be all/end all of parameters, and you can engineer a lot into a small or bigger driver. But size OBVIOUSLY and CLEARLY makes a difference if not compensated for with a LOT of design work. a 15 compared to a 12 compared to a 10 compared to an 8, etc... is going to have higher sensitivity, lower Fs, higher xmax, etc... It's not a rule, it's just a trend. As in, if you average all those parameters for each size class, those things hold true. Don't take my word for it, go look at a bunch of driver specs yourself.
And then just think about it with some common sense. How much xmax can you design into a 5" driver? Because that's how you make up for the tiny surface area so your displacement measures up and you can get some low end going. 15mm? 25? For a single 5 ti match an average 15, it would need to have a 55mm xmax. That's about the radius of the cone. Just think of how fast it would have to be moving to travel 55mm and how much power and control that would take. But you probably have some tiny 1-1.5" vc which can handle like 50-100w max.
So in the end, whatever you can engineer an 8 or a 10 to do (aside from high frequencies), you can design a 12 or a 15 to do better and more so. Because you're not trying to fight physics as hard. Sure, anything from 8s to 18s is "feasible" for bass in reasonable numbers (sorry, 16 5s that cost 2500 bucks and do almost what 2 15s for 500 bucks would do is not really "feasible"). But certain things are just way way way easier with the appropriately sized driver. On the other hand, there are some things that happen with a bunch of drivers that you don't get with 1 or 2. It just depends on what your design goals are, but for low end, when budget is a factor, it's hard to go wrong by going bigger.
A sub driver in the avatar cab may see marginal gains, but will probably still get blown by the op overworking it.
A sub driver in a new custom cab would fare much better but likely still fall short of what it sounds like the OP wants. Combined with bumping up the xo frequency (to say 150, but experiment), and probably bringing down the overall LF volume on the amp, it might be enough to get him there (but would be an expensive experiment if it failed).
A 15" sub driver in a custom cab optimized for low frequencies is the best bet for getting the amount of low frequency volume the op needs to match the 4x8. In terms of area, a 4x8 is a little bit more than a 15, and almost twice a 12 (let's not get into the esoteric and arcane arguments about cone depth and all that nonsense which lets be honest, doesn't make much difference in typical real world application we're dealing with). So to match it with a 12, you need an extremely high excursion 12 to make up the difference, vs an average 15. And the bonus is the 15 will almost certainly have a lower fs (what you want in a sub) and higher power handling (by probably 100w or more) than an equivalent 12. My guess is you could get a 15 sub cab that weighed in at 50 pounds or less. The downside is it would be completely worthless without the other cab, and is still going to cost a good chunk of change, and you still won't have a small gig solution (just 100+ pounds of big club stomping power). Plus the sub cab will have limited resale value since it's such a niche piece (more likely to find someone who wants to use it as a PA sub than with bass).
***
Before I continue, what happened to the 4 kappas and the most recent blown driver? Did you trash them like an idiot, sell them as blown, or do you still have them? If you still have them, they could be reconed and repurposed in new cabs. Or you could sell them to fund whatever you end up going with. 2 2x12 3 way cabs could be commissioned for probably a reasonable price and I bet they could in in the sub 60 pound range, sound pretty good, and certainly be plenty loud.
But if you didn't want to do that, I would sell those old drivers for someone else to recone and use, and then probably commission 2 3 way "super 12" cabs. 1 should have enough low end for small gigs, and 2 should get you by for bigger ones. If you still somehow needed more grunt, you could run those 2 cabs with the 4x8, but I doubt that would be necessary.
***
As far as the driver size debate, come on guys, are we still arguing about this? Driver size is not the be all/end all of parameters, and you can engineer a lot into a small or bigger driver. But size OBVIOUSLY and CLEARLY makes a difference if not compensated for with a LOT of design work. a 15 compared to a 12 compared to a 10 compared to an 8, etc... is going to have higher sensitivity, lower Fs, higher xmax, etc... It's not a rule, it's just a trend. As in, if you average all those parameters for each size class, those things hold true. Don't take my word for it, go look at a bunch of driver specs yourself.
And then just think about it with some common sense. How much xmax can you design into a 5" driver? Because that's how you make up for the tiny surface area so your displacement measures up and you can get some low end going. 15mm? 25? For a single 5 ti match an average 15, it would need to have a 55mm xmax. That's about the radius of the cone. Just think of how fast it would have to be moving to travel 55mm and how much power and control that would take. But you probably have some tiny 1-1.5" vc which can handle like 50-100w max.
So in the end, whatever you can engineer an 8 or a 10 to do (aside from high frequencies), you can design a 12 or a 15 to do better and more so. Because you're not trying to fight physics as hard. Sure, anything from 8s to 18s is "feasible" for bass in reasonable numbers (sorry, 16 5s that cost 2500 bucks and do almost what 2 15s for 500 bucks would do is not really "feasible"). But certain things are just way way way easier with the appropriately sized driver. On the other hand, there are some things that happen with a bunch of drivers that you don't get with 1 or 2. It just depends on what your design goals are, but for low end, when budget is a factor, it's hard to go wrong by going bigger.
@pb9717 . . . when you get your rig up and running again is there any possibility of a sound clip so we can hear the tone you're getting? I'm very interested in the tone you're going for and maybe some others would be too.
At one point I was using a GK 800RB to biamp an Avatar 210 and a Mesa 115 Diesel cab and I really liked the way it sounded! The Avatar had the Deltas in there that didn't have much low end at all. It was almost like a guitar amp for the highs and then the 115 did pretty well with the lows...crossed over around 200hz.
At one point I was using a GK 800RB to biamp an Avatar 210 and a Mesa 115 Diesel cab and I really liked the way it sounded! The Avatar had the Deltas in there that didn't have much low end at all. It was almost like a guitar amp for the highs and then the 115 did pretty well with the lows...crossed over around 200hz.
