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Boss GT-10B

#461
You know, I was almost going to ask that. After I thought about it I realized I'd have to look through my notes for that kind of stuff, and the manual etc. and figure it out.

Just curious - what are you trying to achieve by trying to sync the 10B with Reaper?
 
#462
I'm fleshing out an electronica project which would have a master clock so everyone's gear can be beat synced. I wanted to record some proof-of-concept stuff using "standard" hardware effects instead of pure software via a laptop. I happen to use Reaper and since the GT-10B and Line6 M9 were physically slaving off the signal sent I assumed it was "working". Heh.

Honestly, software is the way to go for pure electronica. Way more control, tones, options, yadda yadda. But it can be much more complicated to program overall since you have so many more choices, and you have to rely on a computer which always worries me. I can't tell you how many times the Windows laptop I happen to have has lost connection to my firewire interface. I always assumed the problems were related to the PC Card which doesn't really lock into the card slot is the problem, but who knows. Usually you reboot and it's magically fixed. But I've had it lose connection to the interface in mid-use at least once. That'd kill a show.

Anyway, that's significantly detracting from the GT-10B conversations here.

But really with the GT-10B and a Line6 M9 in the effects loop there's a ton of experimental options. The M9 has at least a couple interesting filters available, unique verb, good distortion/fuzz. You can run an A/B channel, put the M9 in Channel B, and really have some fun with it running a totally separate and unique sounding signal blended back in.

I certainly don't pretend to be an expert at any of this, and there's really so many options available it can be confusing and time consuming. But I always find myself wanting MORE than whatever the gear can provide, usually simple/silly stuff like MIDI THRU. That would let the GT-10B truly serve as my hub. It could receive the clock, pass that thru to the M9, and them I could also use the GT-10B to fully control the M9 via MIDI. I could have patches that send the GT-10B expression as CC1 to the M9 so I don't have to lug a totaly separate expression just for the M9. The M9 can also change patches (scenes) via MIDI, but it only has 24 of those so I run into another problem as the GT-10B blindly sends PC changes that match the internal GT-10B patches. So in order for the GT-10B to automatically set the patches (scenes) on the M9 I'm limited to only the first 24 patches in the GT-10B. While there is an INBOUND PC map in the GT-10B there's no OUTBOUND PC map to let you control what PC the GT-10B transmits. It's all of those little nit picky things that get annoying quickly.

Not that software is any less annoying. But there's always a tool available to transpose/map/etc. MIDI and do whatever else you want.

I actually own an old MOTU AV Timepiece that can route and merge MIDI channels that I'd probably end up using if it got that far. Then I could connect all of the MIDI gear to that and program a routing table so everything got the clock and the GT-10B sends MIDI data to the M9 for expression control, etc. though I don't believe it can re-map PC data as that's fairly complicated. But it might.

And I think I just typed another short novel.... ENJOY! :) Haha.
 
#463
So does the M9 not have a configurable Midi Program Table?
That would be so annoying if you can only use the first 24 GT-10B patches, what happens to the M9 past that point, does it do nothing, or does it cycle back though the same patches?
Computers and live performance is a situation i will not mix again, nothing quite like pressing the reset button halfway through a song (that was 15 years ago though).

The GT-10B EXP pedal should control the M9 via cc# data O.K. but the GT-10B setting is global, so the same setting is applied to all GT-10B & M9 patches.
 
#464
The M9 does NOT have a program map or any MIDI control over setting the channel. Line6 has historically been very stingy with MIDI support and the M9/M13 were their first devices to my knowledge to even attempt to slave to an external MIDI clock. Even their POD Pro devices had no MIDI Clock support, at least when I owned a couple a year or so ago.

So, if you're beyond the first 24 patches in the GT-10B you're out of luck and have to change scenes manually. Which isn't a huge issue if you're using a single scene per song. The M13 supports 48 scenes so you're a little further ahead in that regard with their larger product.

I have no problem controlling the M9 with the GT-10B expression, CTRL, etc. That's totally fine and works without issue.

I guess the thing that always irks me about MIDI is that it's been around for a long, long, loooooong time. 25 years later and current products don't have THRU jacks for crying out loud. It's insane. It's such a simple, yet versatile technology that isn't harnessed in full by most manufacturers. However, I fully realize it's an advanced feature for your average user.
 
#465
Anyone come up with a clever way to provide a gliss / glide / glissando function where you can slowly hold-and-then-blend between 2 notes as is possible with the EHX HOG?

I've never found the sound hold feature in the GT-10B to sound particularly good based on my limited testing, the sound is always overly digitized/modulated sounding instead of a rock solid hold of the original input but I'd think putting a hold in FX1 and FX2, each in their own Channel, then using some clever assigns with the expression you could initiate and retain the hold in one channel, then as you sweep the expression initiate the hold in the second channel and start crossfading the hold volume in each channel.

Doesn't have to be organ-sounding like in this demo, and I don't think you possibly could since you'd just used all your free FX blocks so you couldn't add a harmonizer, but it illustrates the smooth glide between notes.
 
#467
What's the trick to getting Sound Hold to actually hold the actual sound being input? I plug an single note on my bass, let it ring, turn Hold = ON, and I get a rhythmically glitchy sample of my sound. Always sounds like it has a vibrato/trem/etc. on the held sound.
 
#468
I have found the Sound Hold effect to be totally useless, as with discussion on another board, the sound hold seems to have a bug.
An alternative could be to use reverb or delay with lots of feedback, and the pitch shifter or harmonist.
Assign the EXP pedal to mix the direct and effect levels of the harmonist/pitchshifter.
Other effects which might help for a sustained sound could be synth or compressor.
 
#470
According to Roland support (which is surprisingly quick to respond to email support submitted via their webpage) Sound Hold is working as intended:

This is somewhat normal. The sound hold feature works by "sampling" a short snippet of audio and playing it back in repetition. You're most likely hearing this in the audio. It can be less noticeable when playing higher up on the scale, or depending on the effects that are being used.
Click to expand...
 
#471
OK. had a go at using the sound hold with a dual channel setup, with dry through A and soundhold on B.
The effect is controlled with the EXP pedal, heel down for dry bass, and toe down turns up channel B level, activates the Sound Hold, and activates the reverb.

Boss GT-10B Patch Summary Sat 6. Nov 10:51:26 2010

Patch name: Freeze Pedal EXP

Patch Mode Output Select = LINE/PHONES

**********Signal Chain**********
Input = [NS_1] [PDL] [OD] [PreAmp] [EQ] [A/B Split]
Channel A =
Channel B = [FV] [FX1] [CS] [FX2] [RV]
Output = [A/B Merge] [S/R] [CE] [DD] [NS_2] [DGT]

**********Channel Control***********

[Channel Mode] = Dual Mix
[CH A Level] = 100
[CH B Level] = 100

**********Compressor***********

[CS: On/Off] = On
[CS: Type] = BOSS Limiter
[CS: Tone] = 0
[CS: Effect Level] = 46
[CS: Threshold] = 60
[CS: Ratio] = 4:1
[CS: Limiter Attack] = 0
[CS: Limiter Release] = 20

**********Reverb***********

[Reverb On/Off] = On
[RV: Type] = Plate
[RV: Time] = 5.0 sec
[RV: Low Cut] = FLAT
[RV: High Cut] = FLAT
[RV: Density] = 10
[RV: Effect Level] = 100
[RV: Direct Level] = 0
[RV: Spring Sensivity] = 50
[RV: PreDelay] = 0 ms

**********Pedal FX***********

[Pedal FX :On/Off] = On
[Exp 1: Function] = Foot Volume
[FV: Level] = 100
[FV: Vol Min] = 100
[FV: Vol Max] = 0
[FV: Vol Curve] = Normal

**********FX-1***********

[FX-1: On/Off] = On
[FX-1 Select:] = 2X2 CHORUS
[2CE: Xover Frequency] = 800Hz
[2CE: Low Rate] = 30
[2CE: Low Depth] = 40
[2CE: Low Pre Delay] = 8.0ms
[2CE: Low Level] = 50
[2CE: High Rate] = 40
[2CE: High Depth] = 50
[2CE: High Pre Delay] = 4.0ms
[2CE: High Level] = 100

**********FX-2***********

[FX-2: On/Off] = On
[FX-2 Select:] = SOUND HOLD
[SH: Hold] = Off
[SH: Rise Time] = 49
[SH: Effect Level] = 120

**********Assign 1***********

[On/Off] = On
[Target] = FX2: SH Hold
[Min] = 0
[Max] = 1
[Source] = EXP1 PDL
[Source Mode ] = Moment
[Act Rng Lo] = 0
[Act Rng Hi] = 127
[Internal Pedal Trigger] = CTRL 1 PDL
[Int Pdl Time] = 30
[Int Pdl Curve] = Linear
[Wave Rate] = 20
[Wave Form] = Triangle

**********Assign 2***********

[On/Off] = On
[Target] = FX2: Off/On
[Min] = 0
[Max] = 1
[Source] = CTRL 2 PDL
[Source Mode ] = Moment
[Act Rng Lo] = 0
[Act Rng Hi] = 127
[Internal Pedal Trigger] = CTRL 1 PDL
[Int Pdl Time] = 30
[Int Pdl Curve] = Linear
[Wave Rate] = 20
[Wave Form] = Triangle

**********Assign 3***********

[On/Off] = On
[Target] = RV: Effect Level
[Min] = 0
[Max] = 100
[Source] = EXP1 PDL
[Source Mode ] = Moment
[Range Low] = 0
[Range High] = 127
[Internal Pedal Trigger] = CTRL 1 PDL
[Int Pdl Time] = 30
[Int Pdl Curve] = Linear
[Wave Rate] = 20
[Wave Form] = Triangle

Patch list created with GT-10BFxFloorBoard

I will have a look at the midi clock sync.
I also use a Roland GR-20 synth teed into my GT-10B, it has Hold and Glide pedals which do the job very well.
 
#473
OK friends, here's probably the most annoying audio clip you'll suffer through listening to for quite some time. Barney songs are better than this. :)

I'm using MIDICLOCK which according to their webpage generates MIDI CLOCK and not MTC. Best of all it has two configurable MIDI outputs so I'm sending MIDI CLOCK to my GT-10B and a GMBASSDRUM click to Drumatic3 for the audible click.

GT-10B is using dry bass into Sound Hold on FX1 into Slicer on FX2 set to P1 \ quarter note \ Sens=0. Pretty synthy stuff! :p

The horrible, embarrassing result is exactly the same as when I send MIDI CLOCK from Reaper. It's completely unusable, and it drifts off sync very quickly.

I didn't have time to record the MIDI CLOCK sync of the Line6 M9 but it also drifts, but my recollection from previous testing is it takes more like 40 bars to drift significantly VS a handful of bars for the GT-10B.

Has to be a defect. I'll let you know what Roland has to say, I sent them the URL to the same clip. Should prove educational.

I wish I could blame myself for being a moron and not knowing what I'm doing. Which still could be the case. But I've tried three different click sources now with the same results each time.
 
#474
A potential explanation.

MIDI CLOCK is super dumb. It sends 24 pulses per quarter note based on the clock speed you've selected. That's it. So, if you're various devices grab the clock on different pulses and then start computing you can get drift. At least that's probably going to be the answer to this problem.

Which then begs the question what use MIDI CLOCK really has. And what workarounds or solutions might exist for my problem of slaving the GT-10B (or any other gear for that matter) off a simple MIDI CLOCK. Really, tap tempo will be just as successful as MIDI CLOCK. Possibly more so as you can at least keep re-tapping the tempo which you apparently have no control over on the GT-10B when synced to an external clock.

Here's the raw MIDI data being sent by the MIDICLOCK tool I was using to send a drum beat and MIDI Clock output to my GT-10B. I think it will help illustrate the issue with syncing to MIDI Clock.

TIMESTAMP IN PORT STATUS DATA1 DATA2 CHAN NOTE EVENT
00001519 1 -- 99 24 74 10 C 2 Note On
00001ED1 MOX -- F8 -- -- -- --- Timing Clock
00002897 MOX -- F8 -- -- -- --- Timing Clock
0000325C MOX -- F8 -- -- -- --- Timing Clock
00003C1C MOX -- F8 -- -- -- --- Timing Clock
000045E1 MOX -- F8 -- -- -- --- Timing Clock
00004FA7 MOX -- F8 -- -- -- --- Timing Clock
00004FA7 1 -- 89 24 00 10 C 2 Note Off
0000596C MOX -- F8 -- -- -- --- Timing Clock
0000632C MOX -- F8 -- -- -- --- Timing Clock
00006CF1 MOX -- F8 -- -- -- --- Timing Clock
000076B7 MOX -- F8 -- -- -- --- Timing Clock
0000807C MOX -- F8 -- -- -- --- Timing Clock
00008A3C MOX -- F8 -- -- -- --- Timing Clock
00009401 MOX -- F8 -- -- -- --- Timing Clock
00009DC7 MOX -- F8 -- -- -- --- Timing Clock
0000A78C MOX -- F8 -- -- -- --- Timing Clock
0000B14C MOX -- F8 -- -- -- --- Timing Clock
0000BB11 MOX -- F8 -- -- -- --- Timing Clock
0000C4D7 MOX -- F8 -- -- -- --- Timing Clock
0000CE9C MOX -- F8 -- -- -- --- Timing Clock
0000D85C MOX -- F8 -- -- -- --- Timing Clock
0000E221 MOX -- F8 -- -- -- --- Timing Clock
0000EBE7 MOX -- F8 -- -- -- --- Timing Clock
0000F5AC MOX -- F8 -- -- -- --- Timing Clock
0000FF6C MOX -- F8 -- -- -- --- Timing Clock
0000FF6C 1 -- 99 24 74 10 C 2 Note On
00010931 MOX -- F8 -- -- -- --- Timing Clock
000112F7 MOX -- F8 -- -- -- --- Timing Clock
00011CBC MOX -- F8 -- -- -- --- Timing Clock
0001267C MOX -- F8 -- -- -- --- Timing Clock
00013041 MOX -- F8 -- -- -- --- Timing Clock
00013A07 MOX -- F8 -- -- -- --- Timing Clock
00013A07 1 -- 89 24 00 10 C 2 Note Off
000143CC MOX -- F8 -- -- -- --- Timing Clock
00014D8C MOX -- F8 -- -- -- --- Timing Clock
00015751 MOX -- F8 -- -- -- --- Timing Clock
00016117 MOX -- F8 -- -- -- --- Timing Clock
00016ADC MOX -- F8 -- -- -- --- Timing Clock
00017460 MOX -- FC -- -- -- --- Stop
00017D22 MOX -- FC -- -- -- --- Stop
Click to expand...

What you will see is that it sends a NOTE ON event at the exact same time it sends the first Timing Clock event. What this means is that I'm hearing the drum click immediately. But the outboard gear cannot sync to MIDI Clock based on a single Timing Clock pulse. It needs at least two before it can compute the math to determine the BPM. And thus if it starts the LFO on the second pulse, assuming it can even do it that fast, it's already one pulse behind drum click. It's 1am here and I'm not concious enough for the logic and math necessary, but considering that the external devices slaving to the clock can't start LFO on the first pulse, and that they still need to compute the BPM correctly and probably won't due to MIDI timing issues, there's too many variables to possibly get it all to sync like magic.

Add the Line6 M9 to the mix. I recorded another clip where the GT-10B slicer and M9 Tremolo are both set to quarter note, and both fed off the same Sound Hold tone. Neither syncs to the audible drum click, and neither is synced to each other. I have no way to know if they're even computing the same BPM or not since the GT-10B doesn't display the BPM when you feed it a MIDI Clock. However, the M9 does and it's constantly fluctuating though it's very close to the programmed BPM. I see 119.1 - 119.8 when being fed 120. And add to the complication of figuring this out, there's no way to tell how many pulses it takes before the BPM is physically computed in each device, how often they recompute the BPM (the M9 appears to do it non-stop which is probably good).

Note with the M9 the tap tempo button remains active so you can tap it to force the unit to recalc the BPM. I don't know how effective that is though. I don't believe the GT-10B allows you to do the same, at least it didn't sound like it caused a reset of the LFO when I tried it.

And my conclusion is..... I don't know. :)
 
#475
I just gave it a try, using Sonar 8, the gt-10b built-in USB midi and a USB midi adapter too. Setup a patch with the Slicer P1 pattern controlled by BPM 16th note.
Also set CTL2 pedal to TAP tempo:BPM so you can veiw the GT-10B tempo changes by the led flashing rate.
Initially very poor results, first, no change to GT-10B Tempo, then with a drum track sent to the GT-10B, with Slicer BPM glitches.
I then loked at the PROJECT midi/tempo settings, enabled the Clock Sync, set the master clock to INTERNAL, enabled MTC clock sync to the GT-10B midi port, then tried my midi track again (drum track for acdc 'for those about to rock'), with tempo changes inserted at various intervals.
Success !!! the GT-10B tracks using MTC very well, the Bass & Slicer never moved out of sync with the drum track.

this is a small selection of the sync data captured
F1 0E
F1 10
F1 26
F1 30
F1 40
F1 50
F1 60
F1 76
F1 00
F1 11
F1 26
F1 30
F1 40
F1 50
F1 60
F1 76
F1 02
F1 11
F1 26
F1 30
F1 40
F1 50
F1 60
F1 76
F1 04
F1 11
F1 26
F1 30
F1 40
F1 50
F1 60
F1 76
F1 06
F1 11

EDIT: I tried it with both the built-in USB midi, and an external USB midi device. Same result with both.
 
#476
Note that according to Roland support the GT-10B does not support MTC. Only MIDI CLOCK.

Try your test again with the slicer set to quarter notes. At sixteenth the slicer rate will be too fast even at slower BPM to really hear if the LFO is matches well. During my testing I'm listening to a quarter note click against a quarter note slicer. The goal being that they're spot on synced for an entire 3-5 minute song, tempo changes or not. Note that I'm simply using the Slicer as an example, the same sync issue would be present with all rate based effects.

Another thing to try is a P5 Slicer. This provides an asycronous beat slice. Try to get that to sync to a 4/4 beat so you get the Slicer to do the two quick slices at the beginning of the measure and the longer one at the end. It's probably not possible via MIDI Click as there's no way I see to restart the LFO. In contrast if you use Tap Tempo anytime you start a new beat via Tap it restarts the LFO which is more obvious with a P5 Slicer.

In all seriousness, I keep hoping someone with more MIDI Clock sync experience than me will step in an educate me on what I'm doing wrong VS that the hardware simply cannot sync to MIDI Clock in the manner I'm hoping.

The Slicer is a totally awesome effect that's pure gold when used with synth tones. Gives you that totally clean cut/heavily gated sound you simply can't easily get otherwise. Leverage the variety of patterns provides in the Slicer and you have some really interesting stuff available. Assuming you can get it to sync well to the backing beat. :)
 
#477
Are you guys sending your Midi Clock in Omni mode? Along with all the note and other messages??

Might want to try paring the Midi info down to the actual channels needed, which would send the appropriate signal to the appropriate device...
 
#478
In my example above the MIDI Clock was sent out my hardware to my GT-10B while the Note data was actually sent via MIDI Yoke to Reaper hosting Drummatic3. So they were isolated during transmission, though you're seeing them both summed in MIDI-OX which I used for monitoring.

The whole issue is related to the sync not being true, and the fact you cannot force when the LFO starts, the latter which is more apparent when using a asyncronous Slicer VS a syncronous one, or tremolo, or any of the other beat-synced effects all of which are syncronous to my knowledge.

I haven't fully explored tap tempo yet but I'll see if that's more successful, which might be the case since you can force LFO reset via a re-tap.
 

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