Boutique Bass Benefits

[el murdoque]

You may have left out a few items here;
Rent
Electricity
Plant and equipment cost
Shipping
Insurance
Administration costs
Advertising costs
other expenses

And of course you need to make a profit so yeah, it's not easy to make them on the cheap.

In my original post, I had many of these included, but I deleted them for simplicity.
When you add electricity, rent and equipment, you more or less get the production cost.
Then you need to add a significant markup to sell it to a shop, which then will need to add a significant markup to sell it to a customer, and 5 grand suddenly do not seem that much.

I do own a handmade bass that qualifies as a boutique instrument.
It is a wonderful feeling to have such a thing, where the profile of the neck is just like you want it and even the small details are just right.
But here comes the but:
While I still play that bass, It's not my number one at present. It's a snapshot of my Idea of the perfect bass when I was a few years younger. I have not yet stopped evolving as a bass player, though. So the Idea of the perfect bass is a fluid concept, ever changing with my actual state of development.

 

[Susqmike]

One thing that simply cant be overlooked when buying a boutique instrument: You are supporting a real, hardworking luthier who had the motive and drive to learn an incredibly difficult and demanding craft; then spend decades refining and perfecting it. Most luthiers I know are incredible people. They inspire me. People who build instruments by hand are preserving an old-world craft that is slowly disappearing in light of mass production. They deserve to be paid for their work and education, the same way a trained musician deserves to be paid for their work.

Sure, the mass produced bass may work just fine (often the work and sound great!) but the money you spend is going into factory workers (who are often underpaid, and undertrained) and into the pockets of CEO's who don't care about things like conservation, sustainability, worker safety (those overseas factories often don't have the same health standards as American, Canadian, German ect. factories).

Don't get me wrong, I LOVE the fact that a kid with little to no money (like I once was) can spend $300 and get a perfectly fine instrument that COULD last a lifetime. But if you can afford to support an artisan-craftsman, I think you should.

Just my opinion. I make my own basses and strive to become one of these great artisans that I speak of (Tobias, Adamovic, Skjold, Lull, Nordstrand ect.). I understand, it may be a hard concept to grasp for someone who doesn't make their own instruments. But its similar to paying for real artwork from a local artist, vs a cheap print you found at the mall...

Fantastic post.

 

[drumvsbass]

A J, or P shaped object is not a custom bass IMO, and should never cost more than 1k.

 

[nnnnnn]

But its similar to paying for real artwork from a local artist, vs a cheap print you found at the mall...

Is it though? The cheap print from the mall is (normally) an inexpensive mass-produced reproduction of a one-off original painting, and it doesn't take any special expertise to tell the difference. But in the world of bass guitars there are quite a few boutique basses that are actually expensive one-off reproductions of mass-produced Fenders.

 

[fhm555]

One thing that simply cant be overlooked when buying a boutique instrument: You are supporting a real, hardworking luthier who had the motive and drive to learn an incredibly difficult and demanding craft; then spend decades refining and perfecting it. Most luthiers I know are incredible people. They inspire me. People who build instruments by hand are preserving an old-world craft that is slowly disappearing in light of mass production. They deserve to be paid for their work and education, the same way a trained musician deserves to be paid for their work.

Sure, the mass produced bass may work just fine (often the work and sound great!) but the money you spend is going into factory workers (who are often underpaid, and undertrained) and into the pockets of CEO's who don't care about things like conservation, sustainability, worker safety (those overseas factories often don't have the same health standards as American, Canadian, German ect. factories).

Don't get me wrong, I LOVE the fact that a kid with little to no money (like I once was) can spend $300 and get a perfectly fine instrument that COULD last a lifetime. But if you can afford to support an artisan-craftsman, I think you should.

Just my opinion. I make my own basses and strive to become one of these great artisans that I speak of (Tobias, Adamovic, Skjold, Lull, Nordstrand ect.). I understand, it may be a hard concept to grasp for someone who doesn't make their own instruments. But its similar to paying for real artwork from a local artist, vs a cheap print you found at the mall...

As a hand maker of a mass produced item, i appreciate the sentiment of supporting artisans, something i am definitely not. My sole purpose for learning my craft was to have a fishing rod not available from any mass producer. It was for a market segment too small to bother with, so short of a compromise in performance and the follow on loss of production i sought out an individual who could build a rod to do the job well. LSS we became friends and i wound up apprenticing under them. They have been gone for many years now but their skill and knowledge lives on (to a lesser degree) in my work.
I do it for one reason, to produce a tool that will work better than anything available from any mass producer. If all i was doing was continuing a tradition i’d have a satisfying hobby, but word gets around and as wifey tells me from time to time when i’m working 18 hours a day seven days a week to meet my promise dates, it’s a good thing i’m not a girl because i just can’t say no.
If i could not offer a rod superior to anything off the rack i wouldn’t be doing it. The money is good but not that good, i could do much better with half the effort, but seeing the face of someone when they first get their hands on their new rod makes all the effort worthwhile.

 

[fermata]

A J, or P shaped object is not a custom bass IMO, and should never cost more than 1k.

One of the many clever things Leo Fender did was design an instrument for mass/assembly line production. He's the Henry Ford of guitars, if you will. To an equal degree that they are musical instruments, Fenders stand out as fine examples of industrial design.

So yeah, it gets a bit odd when that design is replicated by a more old-fashioned luthier. If I were to buy a boutique instrument from a luthier, I'd want something that can't--or won't--be made on an assembly line, something that shows a degree of originality.

I played a boutique/custom instrument (a modified reproduction of a 19th century wooden flute design) for about a dozen years, and there was a certain satisfaction in playing a bespoke instrument that wasn't available off-the-rack and in making a purchase that supported an individual artisan.

A downside with boutique instruments is that it's hard to try before you buy. Buying instruments blind is a roll of the dice; quality and workmanship alone won't guarantee that the instrument is a good fit for the player.

 

[Admiral Thrawn]

I don't get the draw to a P or J boutique bass.

However, I do get the draw to boutique basses in general. I have been lusting after a Carl Thompson since 1999 and am starting to get into a position to buy one. However, the CT I want doesn't look anything like a P or J bass, and will not sound like either one when finished.

That's the draw for me-- the CT I want will sound like itself rather than imitating another bass model.

Nevertheless, if someone has the money burning a hole in their pocket and they are dead set on that $10K Fodera J bass, by all means, pull the trigger! You only live once and money is a replaceable expedient.

 

[TexasEdition]

There are 2 main camps in "custom boutique" instruments of just about any type....

1.) True custom hand build - where every detail is tailored to your specs. This means woods, colors, electrics, contours, neck profile, etc.

2.) Small shop production - Parts instruments made from either sourced parts, or in-shop produced parts, where a limited amount of components are customized. This means less choice of woods, colors, etc. Some of these are "standard" production runs where you would have no choice in it's creation.

In either case, you are paying for several things:
- Reduced efficiency - Smaller shops do not have investments in advanced tooling, production line processes, and cost savings by sourcing or producing parts, on shore labor. The cost of doing business is generally higher per production unit.
- Slightly improved fit and finish - You can expect to get an instrument fitted, set up, and marginally improved over a production big-brand such as Fender, Ibanez, Gibson.
- Near Zero Mod - You will end up with an instrument that you like without having or wanting to mod things like pickups, knobs, tuners, dials, etc.
- Bragging Rights - You have something many others don't

 

[Relayer71]

In all my years here I’ve seen people who opt to play cheap basses holding that fact up as a badge of honor far, far more than those who choose to use boutiques.

This is so true! The whole "snob" attitude is attributed to the wrong group, sometimes.

Preaching your love for cheap basses and constantly harping about them AND saying things like "even if I had the cash, boutique basses aren't worth it", "it's a scam!", sort of makes you snobbish as well.

Not that I'm taking a side. Just agreeing with this observation.

 

[musicman556]

I earlier made a comparison to my $260 Sterling ray4 to a expensive bass. Your $4000 dinkledorf is not 20 times better than my $260 sterling. Does not stay in tune 20 times better, honestly I have played it at my past 5 gigs, stays in tune the whole night. Sound? Maybe your bass with pickups hand wound by nuns may sound a little better, maybe more different than better. Hand made by a luthier? Ok, my sterling is assembled by hand. Your Mercedes is assembled and painted by robotics. Main difference between basses is the finish.

Mercedes is simply akin to a higher end Fender, imho. If you want to speak about and make analogies with boutique builders in the car realm, think Pagani or Koenigsegg. THOSE are boutique builders of fine automobiles.

And they all go down the highway at 55mph. (staying in tune analogy) What do I drive? a Ford. What do I have feverish dreams of? a Huayra Invalid Link Removed

Yea. It's better than my Ford.

 

[gorneyg]

I'm glad someone FINALLY raised this!

 

[Relayer71]

You may have left out a few items here;
Rent
Electricity
Plant and equipment cost
Shipping
Insurance
Administration costs
Advertising costs
other expenses

And of course you need to make a profit so yeah, it's not easy to make them on the cheap.

Exactly! The prices include profit for retailers (who aren't selling the instruments as favors to the manufacturers) and those retailers have all of the above items to pay for as well.

Some people seem to think manufacturers and retailers are working for the consumer. They forget the whole profit thing. And how much that profit is is entirely up to the manufacturers and retailers.

Maybe some posters complaining about prices can start a non-profit bass building company. You pay for parts only and they'll make the bass for free. Of course, this not only applies to boutique basses but all basses above what some think are acceptable prices.

 

[40Hz]

They deserve to be paid for their work and education, the same way a trained musician deserves to be paid for their work.

I don’t think what somebody (or somebody else) thinks he or she “deserves” is really relevant from a market perspective. Life doesn’t hand out merit badges.

What I do think however, is that people need to be paid at least a living income if people expect them to be able to continue producing the products and delivering the services they provide. As the old saying goes: Don’t expect marvels and miracles unless you’re able and willing to pay for them.

 

[baxter_x]

A J, or P shaped object is not a custom bass IMO, and should never cost more than 1k.

Roger Sadowsky makes some J and P shaped bass. And it's defeniatly custom and AND costs way more than 1K.

 

[gstaats]

I don't own a boutique bass, don't have anything against them either. I guess I fall somewhere in the middle. After playing cheaper instruments for a long time, I bought my first used Carvin and loved it. It was a significant upgrade over my other basses, not to mention the materials and finish was much better. I'm happier buying several used Carvin basses that appeal to me rather than buying a single, much more expensive instrument. I prefer neck-through basses, figured tops and a nice ebony fretboard. Not everyone's cup of tea - but I know what I personally like and have found it. When one finds an instrument, builder or build that speaks to them, go for it. If it feels and sounds good buy it and play it.

 

[TrevorR]

Is it though? The cheap print from the mall is (normally) an inexpensive mass-produced reproduction of a one-off original painting, and it doesn't take any special expertise to tell the difference. But in the world of bass guitars there are quite a few boutique basses that are actually expensive one-off reproductions of mass-produced Fenders.

There you go. An expensive reproduction in the art world of a mass produced item...

 

[LUCE]

To me, and in a word- scarcity. It applies to most anything. Cars. Bourbon. Elite athletes. Supermodels. Basses.

 

[Bass V]

Frankenstein was people too, handmade, functioned sufficiently, and had a soul, but was pieced together by an obsessive out of parts which made a lot of town folk angry yet still managed to enlist a huge fan base.
while a cheap bass can provide a lifetime of joy most tend to look for the best they can find, some go to monetary extremes to achieve a goal of superiority as others search for bargains and often succeed just as well.

 

[Brad_Pearson]

There are many valid points mentioned in this thread. However; we all know that ego alone is one of the common reasons to pick a boutique bass.

I'm not trying to be negative here just trying to understand what you are saying. Is it egotistical to want to support a fellow artist? Does someone have to have an "ego" to go see their favorite band, especially if that band is well established and charges a high ticket price?

I see these boutique instruments as art in and of themselves. Functional art. It seems odd to me that as artists (musicians) there would be so much opposition to those who create an artistic tool meant for us to enjoy.

Even if you can't afford one, isn't it nice to drool over and learn about them?

And just as another point of discussion. Could we draw a comparison of those boutique builders of Fender style instruments to musicians who choose to work within a well established musical medium? How many blues musicians are recognized for their original interpretations of old standards? Absolutely, the same could be said for jazz musicians. Look at Kieth Jarret, I would argue most of the work he is best known for is standards. How is that any different from Sadowsky and his Fender style instruments. Sure, they share the basic shape of a fender, but any one of US can look at one and in a second tell what it is, the average non player probably can't. An uninformed listener wouldn't know the difference between Oscar Peterson and a decent college student playing the same tune...

 

[Brad_Pearson]

I don’t think what somebody (or somebody else) thinks he or she “deserves” is really relevant from a market perspective. Life doesn’t hand out merit badges.

What I do think however, is that people need to be paid at least a living income if people expect them to be able to continue producing the products and delivering the services they provide. As the old saying goes: Don’t expect marvels and miracles unless you’re able and willing to pay for them.

Its a difficult point to discuss since instruments are not just a "tool" or "products" but also art in and of themselves IMHO. There have ALWAYS been difficulties with assigning value to art and artists (I would think a forum full of musicians could relate to this). You could look at recordings today which are, in and of themselves, essentially worthless since no one pays anywhere near what they used to for them. They do however provide a value in promotion that cannot be overlooked. Since no one will support a musician without being able to hear them...

Really loving the discussion in this thread!