If you are unwilling or unable to spend the money, that's your business but there is no need to take pot-shots at people who can appreciate and afford a custom instrument.
To the OP, they are only worth the money if you think they are.
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Boutique basses
- Thread starter LouieV2
- Start date
To the OP, they are only worth the money if you think they are.
coyote1 said:You're wrong.
Actually, IMO the 'bias' is just an unwillingness or inability to spend oodles of $$$ where it is not needed. You don't need a Ferrari to get to the gig, and you don't need an Alembic or Warrior to play Mustang Sally. There isn't a carpenter alive who cannot do his job with a $20 Stanley; a $219 Stiletto TiBone is a luxury.
The 90-10 rule applies here. One need have no bias to realize the truth of that.
Gimme a P or a J bass, and I can play 80% of my gigs. But there are some situations where I legitimately need a sound and range that is not afforded by either of these designs or their multitudes of close derivatives. OR, there are situations where I would greatly prefer something that doesn't really come with the classic Fender territory, either tonally or playability-wise. Then, there's the fact that I really want to establish a close working relationship with a local builder who can custom-tailor an instrument to my own style and preferences. To me, the relationship, quality of build, level of customization, and opportunity to support a local small business makes it all worth it. If you still don't get it, that's perfectly fine. But I want you to know that I would never disparage anyone for playing an off-the-line bass. Different strokes and all, y'know.
I've been on both ends of the spectrum. There is so much variability on this subject,
it seems useless to make generalizations. However, buying a good quality instrument
makes the world of difference between enjoying playing and utterly despising it. Cost
of a quality instrument is relative. I have both a Music Man and a Ken Smith. Both are
great instruments and at different price points. Both have uniquely different sounds and
both are of excellent build quality. Is one better than the other? IMO no, just different, although the Ken Smith is a more unique and also hand made instrument, hence the higher cost. Just my opinion.
it seems useless to make generalizations. However, buying a good quality instrument
makes the world of difference between enjoying playing and utterly despising it. Cost
of a quality instrument is relative. I have both a Music Man and a Ken Smith. Both are
great instruments and at different price points. Both have uniquely different sounds and
both are of excellent build quality. Is one better than the other? IMO no, just different, although the Ken Smith is a more unique and also hand made instrument, hence the higher cost. Just my opinion.
1. Not all boutique basses are super expensive. There are builders like Cliff Bordwell and Chris Stambaugh that offer an extremely good value without having to pay the cost of certain high end instruments, especially ones through dealers.
2. Not all boutique players are very wealthy. I'm neither a doctor nor a lawyer. Sure, I supplement my income with overtime due to workers constantly quitting. I avoid debt like the plague and live well within my means.
3. Being a professional musician doesn't always pay the best. Despite claiming that anything that's not a Fender doesn't work, a lot of professional musicians simply can't afford them, which is quite unfortunate and not the fault of boutique basses and/or lawyers. In many areas, a professional musician would be hard pressed to make what a teacher makes when benefits are factored in.
4. Aren't you still in college? I was broke as hell back then, too. When I started out on bass, I had a Peavey Cirrus and didn't even have the scratch to get a bass amp for a year or two. I had to make due with a guitar amp. Patience is key.
Why would a person who can both afford and appreciate a custom instrument be so insecure about it that a pot shot from some poor slob who lacks such refinement could possibly have an impact??
once again,
lol
once again,
lol
At what point did anyone say that? Besides, I'm a boutique player and a slob. However, saying that we're all doctors, lawyers, or the dreaded 1% is perfectly acceptable, eh? It's ok if you do it, but not us, right?
At what point did anyone say that? Besides, I'm a boutique player and a slob. However, saying that we're all doctors, lawyers, or the dreaded 1% is perfectly acceptable, eh? It's ok if you do it, but not us, right?
Exactly!
Seriously, I dig some of the boutique basses. A Marlaeux or a Warrior would be an awesome thing to own. But for myself, even though I can afford it I cannot justify it.
As was stated by others, it is different for each of us.
But I am enjoying lampooning the thread.
- Aug 5, 2005
- 7,243
- 92
- Disclosures
- Endorsing Artist: J.C. Basses
If the instrument feels good in my hands, sounds like everything I want it to sound like, and inspires me, it's worth every penny to me.
Hobbies are not typically justifiable financially. By no means do I recommend racking up copious amounts of debt or make irresponsible decisions (on the contrary, I advise against that), but I don't think you should base your decision on whether or not the music you make will ultimately pay it off in the end.
Hobbies are not typically justifiable financially. By no means do I recommend racking up copious amounts of debt or make irresponsible decisions (on the contrary, I advise against that), but I don't think you should base your decision on whether or not the music you make will ultimately pay it off in the end.
Exactly!
Seriously, I dig some of the boutique basses. A Marlaeux or a Warrior would be an awesome thing to own. But for myself, even though I can afford it I cannot justify it.
As was stated by others, it is different for each of us.
But I am enjoying lampooning the thread.
LOL, ok, I get the sarcasm. There are enough serious people who hate them due to the price. Some hate them because they hate change.
I don't know much about Marlaeux, but I can assure you that you can get many of the features of a Warrior without that kind of dough. Well, maybe Stambaugh or Bordwell don't anoint their basses, but I'm sure they'd try.
There are plenty of people right here on Talk Bass that would say your German Warwick and MIA Fender are way overpriced, and that their Squier or SX or whatever sound, play, and look just as good. So, let me ask you, do your German 'Wick and MIA Fender really sound and play THAT much better, or is it a status thing?
I'm really not trying to get in your face, I just want to point out that it's all a matter of perspective. Your basses were worth the money to you, or else you wouldn't have purchased them. The same is true of people who buy high end custom basses. The differences may be fairly small, and may cost a lot, but just as it was worth it to you to get that MIA Fender instead of a Squier, it's worth it to the buyer.
Wow. I'll bet it's been over a week since we last had this thread.
If you were a billionaire, what kind of car would you drive? A Bentley? A Veyron? An Enzo? Would it be worth what you paid for it? Would it be worth it to a thousandaire like me? No.
If you have the money and your family won't suffer for it, then it's worth it if you like it. It's clearly worth it from the market's perspective if the builder sells every one of them, which I believe most of them do. When you have people waiting 18 months for a $12,000 bass, there must be some attraction.
Only you can decide if it's "worth it" to you. To me, some are. Others are not.
If you were a billionaire, what kind of car would you drive? A Bentley? A Veyron? An Enzo? Would it be worth what you paid for it? Would it be worth it to a thousandaire like me? No.
If you have the money and your family won't suffer for it, then it's worth it if you like it. It's clearly worth it from the market's perspective if the builder sells every one of them, which I believe most of them do. When you have people waiting 18 months for a $12,000 bass, there must be some attraction.
Only you can decide if it's "worth it" to you. To me, some are. Others are not.
Everyone is different as are the basses they play, and that's a good thing. Boutique basses are highly unique one of a kind basses custom built to customer specs, and sought after for that reason. If I had the cash; I would purchase a custom LeCompte STSS ..... my dream bass.
Not necessarily. Realize that many boutiques are custom built for a particular person and they often have specific tone goals. For instance a Fodera can end up having a wide variety of designs and setups. If you play one, it may or may not speak to you or give you an indication about others.
The law of diminishing returns is real, but some people are willing to fork out the money for a variety of reasons. In my case, I appreciate attention to detail and certain aesthetics that I can't get in a mass production instrument. I've done plenty of gigs with Fenders. I'd rather use Fodera. And with my Rob Allens - well, that sound/vibe just doesn't exist in a mass produced instrument.
Just depends on what you want, your means, and what speaks to you. And all boutiques are not created equal.
For a little more than that $850 Fender, I could get a nice custom Carvin.
I just don't like the MIA Fender's I've played, but I briefly played a Carvin and loved it.
Certainly not a status thing (for me anyway) - rarely have I found a bass player outside TB who's even heard of Sadowsky. Much less other musicians or audience members.
I could've happily gotten by forever with the Fender it replaced to be honest. Where the Sadowsky excels for me is the comfort of the downsized body and significantly lighter weight. And the consistent excellent construction (Ive seen lots of dogs on store shelves out there). And the ability to order exactly what I wanted from a team that provides incredible customer experience and support. And the great aesthetics of a nice top and custom finish. And an incredible and flexible preamp that allows me to "set & forget" my amp, yet get a variety of amazing tones easily with the on-board controls. And a truss rod that is tremendously easy to adjust with a bridge that makes re-stringing the instrument a snap - significantly better than any other bass I've owned. And one of the best gig bags on the market.
Worth it to me, but I get that not everyone out there feels that way. Like I said above, I loved my Fender Jazz bass too and it was a significant investment for me at the time. To each their own!
I could've happily gotten by forever with the Fender it replaced to be honest. Where the Sadowsky excels for me is the comfort of the downsized body and significantly lighter weight. And the consistent excellent construction (Ive seen lots of dogs on store shelves out there). And the ability to order exactly what I wanted from a team that provides incredible customer experience and support. And the great aesthetics of a nice top and custom finish. And an incredible and flexible preamp that allows me to "set & forget" my amp, yet get a variety of amazing tones easily with the on-board controls. And a truss rod that is tremendously easy to adjust with a bridge that makes re-stringing the instrument a snap - significantly better than any other bass I've owned. And one of the best gig bags on the market.
Worth it to me, but I get that not everyone out there feels that way. Like I said above, I loved my Fender Jazz bass too and it was a significant investment for me at the time. To each their own!
For a little more than that $850 Fender, I could get a nice custom Carvin.
Here in Australia, $850 will only get you an MIM Precision Bass (discounted) or a full-price Squier CV or VM. There are also only limited options for custom basses.
Maybe it's just that I'm old and stuck in my ways and ideas.
I certainly can appreciate the value of superior engineering and build quality because if I couldn't I'd have never spent the thousands of dollars I did on Leica cameras that I did at that time in my life. That didn't however mean that I didn't appreciate and employ other maker's products for their unique capabilities. Thing is though, nothing could match how a Leica did what it did nor could it even approach doing what a Leica did to a roll of Kodachrome. (Sorry Nikon & Canon guys, it's true; and I was a Canon guy, too.) Remember, however, in this example, we're talking about manufacturing tolerances which are measured in increments which are literally less than a single wavelength of light in difference in the case of the optics, and mechanical standards for rigor in use and refinement of feel which might only be approached in a consumer good by the finest of watches or the most stringent demands of super performance powertrains at peak operational limits, to say nothing of proprietary manufacturing techniques which are trade secrets.
Let's look at basses.
Beautiful wood. - The first line of defense for a boutique guitar. You simply cannot get the absolute beauty offered by limited production means in a mass-produced piece when it comes to naturally grained finishes and hand-selected timber examples. Unquestionably fact. I am not immune to this myself and in fact have on the stove a personal project of extreme exotically grained beauty in a Jazz shape. You may look at it when it's done and turn up your nose, but that's your problem not mine. For me, however, the beautiful woods found in so many boutique pieces are wasted on amorphous blobs of uninspired bloat. They commonly look like they came from the same jelly-bean design school as a '97 Ford Taurus. That's my problem, not yours. So for me, not worth the difference. If it doesn't look like a Jazz, it doesn't have appeal for me. Boutique makers copy it for a reason.
The comparative level of complexity of the making of a slab and neck of a solid body bass and a traditional bass viol are, in my mind a world apart. It seems that the skill of laying out a 34" scale on a fretboard is one of fairly simple understanding when compared to the skill of shaping the top plate of a bass nearing the size of a small kitchen table. So, what that really comes down to is boutique basses employ good cabinetry skills and not much more.
Yes, being a skilled fret tweaker is a very special skill, but the reality of that is frets can be tweaked. Somebody will always have the skill to tweak a fret, mass or boutique. And while the batting average of a hand-picked neck stock may be higher than a mass produced one, that doesn't mean that one can't find an equally well performing mass produced piece of wood to tweak the frets of. Certainly, one must be discerning but to suggest that there is no such thing as a boutique stinker or that such discernment will always arrive at the boutique door is poppy-cock.
VERY attractive pieces, however, are a dime a dozen. I find the Squier Vintage Modified maple body of my FrankenSquier bass to be extremely attractive, and could you take it in a time machine back to 1965 at it's same relative price to offerings of the day as it is now, with the finish quality it offers, nothing could have stopped it.
We won't even go to the question of the sonic qualities, or lack thereof, exotic woods of boutique basses may or may not offer. While it may very well be true that there are to some extent more than subtle differences to be found, the actual discernment of those differences in real world performances in a blind testing might be much more difficult to suss out than the player dropping his GAS wad might believe. Floating around here somewhere on TB is the 2x4 bass test, or some such thing. As I recall, sonic differences were found, but nowhere near what the pricing of ANY boutique bass might suggest. YMMV.
Mechanicals - In a world where Hipshot, Schaller, Gotoh, and the other familiar handful of brands exist, rare is the instance where a boutique actually produces a custom piece, at least beyond a custom labeled product. It is beyond the capacity of most boutiques to manage the capital to do so. It would seem that Babicz is genuinely a boutique bridge with a significant difference (eccentric cam string height adjustment) but when you break down everything else the others offer the differences are few and minor, or meaningless in the face a properly chosen not as-adjustable simpler mech.
Electronics - Yes, electronics vary, but ultra-custom electronics can be fitted to a mass-produced instrument for a fraction of the cost that purchasing them as original equipment installations on a boutique bass demand. Again, the boutique builder is commonly driven to the mass marketplace himself to provide the rarity of his special sauce to the marketplace. "We use ACME pickups!" Big whoop. There are ACME pickups closing on eBay in the next 10 minutes. He may actually make his own pups, but then he dilutes his own brand by selling them so I can install them on my Squier if I want. Um... isn't that kind of counter productive, at least in the pursuit of exclusivity?
Strings - Well, I don't see any maker genuinely making the fame of it's name based on truly individual string tech, other than perhaps Kala with the Ubass. Yes, boutique makers have their own brands, but I believe that satisfies the demand of the marketplace for the esoteric appeal as much as it actually provides a genuinely distinctive difference over the multiplicity of offerings of string specialty manufacturers. Commerce always seems to rape art.
That pretty much sums up, at least as an overview, the reality of mass vs. boutique in one guy's opinion. One question which comes to mind is, when does a boutique maker cross the threshold to being a mass marketer? That kind of turns the whole discussion inside out, doesn't it. Hasn't Sadowsky sort of become a junior Fender?
Howl though you might, I think the argument can be made that at some point in a price range beyond the market norm of high-quality mass produced goods, the appeal of boutique is as much to the ego of the buyer as to the rationality of the purchase argument. Any opinion to the contrary isn't going to wash with me.
If all the world had were Fender basses, the music we listen to wouldn't sound all that much different than it does today. At the bottom line it's just a fact.
iJazz - A fool and his money are soon parted.
I certainly can appreciate the value of superior engineering and build quality because if I couldn't I'd have never spent the thousands of dollars I did on Leica cameras that I did at that time in my life. That didn't however mean that I didn't appreciate and employ other maker's products for their unique capabilities. Thing is though, nothing could match how a Leica did what it did nor could it even approach doing what a Leica did to a roll of Kodachrome. (Sorry Nikon & Canon guys, it's true; and I was a Canon guy, too.) Remember, however, in this example, we're talking about manufacturing tolerances which are measured in increments which are literally less than a single wavelength of light in difference in the case of the optics, and mechanical standards for rigor in use and refinement of feel which might only be approached in a consumer good by the finest of watches or the most stringent demands of super performance powertrains at peak operational limits, to say nothing of proprietary manufacturing techniques which are trade secrets.
Let's look at basses.
Beautiful wood. - The first line of defense for a boutique guitar. You simply cannot get the absolute beauty offered by limited production means in a mass-produced piece when it comes to naturally grained finishes and hand-selected timber examples. Unquestionably fact. I am not immune to this myself and in fact have on the stove a personal project of extreme exotically grained beauty in a Jazz shape. You may look at it when it's done and turn up your nose, but that's your problem not mine. For me, however, the beautiful woods found in so many boutique pieces are wasted on amorphous blobs of uninspired bloat. They commonly look like they came from the same jelly-bean design school as a '97 Ford Taurus. That's my problem, not yours. So for me, not worth the difference. If it doesn't look like a Jazz, it doesn't have appeal for me. Boutique makers copy it for a reason.
The comparative level of complexity of the making of a slab and neck of a solid body bass and a traditional bass viol are, in my mind a world apart. It seems that the skill of laying out a 34" scale on a fretboard is one of fairly simple understanding when compared to the skill of shaping the top plate of a bass nearing the size of a small kitchen table. So, what that really comes down to is boutique basses employ good cabinetry skills and not much more.
Yes, being a skilled fret tweaker is a very special skill, but the reality of that is frets can be tweaked. Somebody will always have the skill to tweak a fret, mass or boutique. And while the batting average of a hand-picked neck stock may be higher than a mass produced one, that doesn't mean that one can't find an equally well performing mass produced piece of wood to tweak the frets of. Certainly, one must be discerning but to suggest that there is no such thing as a boutique stinker or that such discernment will always arrive at the boutique door is poppy-cock.
VERY attractive pieces, however, are a dime a dozen. I find the Squier Vintage Modified maple body of my FrankenSquier bass to be extremely attractive, and could you take it in a time machine back to 1965 at it's same relative price to offerings of the day as it is now, with the finish quality it offers, nothing could have stopped it.
We won't even go to the question of the sonic qualities, or lack thereof, exotic woods of boutique basses may or may not offer. While it may very well be true that there are to some extent more than subtle differences to be found, the actual discernment of those differences in real world performances in a blind testing might be much more difficult to suss out than the player dropping his GAS wad might believe. Floating around here somewhere on TB is the 2x4 bass test, or some such thing. As I recall, sonic differences were found, but nowhere near what the pricing of ANY boutique bass might suggest. YMMV.
Mechanicals - In a world where Hipshot, Schaller, Gotoh, and the other familiar handful of brands exist, rare is the instance where a boutique actually produces a custom piece, at least beyond a custom labeled product. It is beyond the capacity of most boutiques to manage the capital to do so. It would seem that Babicz is genuinely a boutique bridge with a significant difference (eccentric cam string height adjustment) but when you break down everything else the others offer the differences are few and minor, or meaningless in the face a properly chosen not as-adjustable simpler mech.
Electronics - Yes, electronics vary, but ultra-custom electronics can be fitted to a mass-produced instrument for a fraction of the cost that purchasing them as original equipment installations on a boutique bass demand. Again, the boutique builder is commonly driven to the mass marketplace himself to provide the rarity of his special sauce to the marketplace. "We use ACME pickups!" Big whoop. There are ACME pickups closing on eBay in the next 10 minutes. He may actually make his own pups, but then he dilutes his own brand by selling them so I can install them on my Squier if I want. Um... isn't that kind of counter productive, at least in the pursuit of exclusivity?
Strings - Well, I don't see any maker genuinely making the fame of it's name based on truly individual string tech, other than perhaps Kala with the Ubass. Yes, boutique makers have their own brands, but I believe that satisfies the demand of the marketplace for the esoteric appeal as much as it actually provides a genuinely distinctive difference over the multiplicity of offerings of string specialty manufacturers. Commerce always seems to rape art.
That pretty much sums up, at least as an overview, the reality of mass vs. boutique in one guy's opinion. One question which comes to mind is, when does a boutique maker cross the threshold to being a mass marketer? That kind of turns the whole discussion inside out, doesn't it. Hasn't Sadowsky sort of become a junior Fender?
Howl though you might, I think the argument can be made that at some point in a price range beyond the market norm of high-quality mass produced goods, the appeal of boutique is as much to the ego of the buyer as to the rationality of the purchase argument. Any opinion to the contrary isn't going to wash with me.
If all the world had were Fender basses, the music we listen to wouldn't sound all that much different than it does today. At the bottom line it's just a fact.
iJazz - A fool and his money are soon parted.
It's not for you to get. Your definition of "need or appreciation", which by definition is personal and subjective, doesn't have anything to do with how other people spend their money. What do you mean by "appreciation". Are you equating that to playing level? If so, then stop thinking that only people who can play are entitled to nice stuff. I just mess around with bass as a hobby but I have some instruments I'm guessing you would think I can't "appreciate". I say who cares if you are comning from a judmental place. These kind of comments always seem a little elitist to me.
