Brutal open Acoustic jam experience

[BrickBatMansion]

To the OP............don't know your $situation but his could be a great excuse to acquire an ABG. Especially a fretless one. They are great to have around the house to just pick up and play w/o turning on an amp, bugging other ppl, etc. I had one in an office for 5 yrs and played it every day. No prob. Plus, I didn't play "differently". I picked, thumped, slapped, fingered............and that bass plays almost as good as my electrics!

Somebody had a link to something like "what is wrong with Bluegrass players?"
I lived thru this nitemare in my beginning days of playing bass. And that is a whole 'nother story. One guy even informed me (as he looked at my electric with disgust) that "I shave with a straight razor and use a cup with a bar of soap in it for shaving cream"..........

Sorry you went thru this prejudice. Good for you for being there for your friend.

 

[JGbassman]

To the OP............don't know your $situation but his could be a great excuse to acquire an ABG. Especially a fretless one. They are great to have around the house to just pick up and play w/o turning on an amp, bugging other ppl, etc. I had one in an office for 5 yrs and played it every day. No prob. Plus, I didn't play "differently". I picked, thumped, slapped, fingered............and that bass plays almost as good as my electrics!

Somebody had a link to something like "what is wrong with Bluegrass players?"
I lived thru this nitemare in my beginning days of playing bass. And that is a whole 'nother story. One guy even informed me (as he looked at my electric with disgust) that "I shave with a straight razor and use a cup with a bar of soap in it for shaving cream"..........

Sorry you went thru this prejudice. Good for you for being there for your friend.

I've looked at Acoustic basses in the past, but they always seemed to compromise some aspect in playability, sound, and they are fragile when transporting. They are bulky, and just not my thing. My fretless jazz basses are sleek, sound great, and play great. if you like them, all is good, but buying one just to appease a few just isn't going to happen.

As far as the bluegrass players go, I love the music, but if I was told to play an upright, I'd say sure, but you will have to play a 1920 Gibson, or I'm just not interested, lol.

I can't stand snobs, whether it be regarding music, cars, property or sports. If you can't accept me for whom I am, I will simply find others that do.

Life is too short to compromise it with bad people.

 

[JGbassman]

A while back I took a master class with one of the top fretless players. He said that he often travels by air with just his bass, and plays all kinds of weird spaces, so he can't always guarantee that he will have a good monitor mix and be able to hear himself well. The moral of the story, fretless players should not be afraid to look at the fret lines or use a digital tuner to play in tune. Live music is unpredictable but the show must go on. Heck, there have been a few times my bass was unplugged or totally inaudible, but I stayed on stage and played air bass!

That's very poetic and all, and I do grasp what he says. I have played professionally for many years, toured and was on some big stages opening for some larger artists. As an opener, you don't alway get the best mix or time to do so, so yea, I totally understand the lack of hearing a good quality mix to play behind.

My issue is I'm far from a master playing the fretless, and for me to play with any form of confidence, I need to hear the notes, it's simple as that. If this would have been an actual gig I would have treated it differently, and hopefully found a way to work things to a better situation. As this was a three or four song jam, I cut my losses and decided to take my stand another day, lol.

Hopefully next week will find everyone in better spirits, the jam will go well and everyone will find a way to be tolerant of each other. Me? I just want my friend to be happy and enjoy our time on stage.

 

[jive1]

Even with passive cross-overs and those little foster tweeters you find in Crate and Carvin level PA's, you can hear when the tweeter starts to complain before real damage is done.

And roll off above the crossover point to give the tweeters some relief. It's really not rocket science to put bass in a monitor.

 

[jive1]

To the OP............don't know your $situation but his could be a great excuse to acquire an ABG. Especially a fretless one. They are great to have around the house to just pick up and play w/o turning on an amp, bugging other ppl, etc. I had one in an office for 5 yrs and played it every day. No prob. Plus, I didn't play "differently". I picked, thumped, slapped, fingered............and that bass plays almost as good as my electrics!

I own a fretless ABG that I love very much, and play gigs with. I've owned a few other ABG in the past, and I have nothing against them. However, in any application other than playing by yourself, I have yet to find one that has any functional volume acoustically. Every single one needs amplification of some sort to function in a gig setting. There are some that might keep up with a single unamplified guitar with moderate volume in a quiet room, but once the guitar gets loud or there are other instruments added, the ABG will get drowned out. If there is any crowd noise, the ABG gets drowned out. Unless you want that sound and look, there's no need to get one for a gig.

I've looked at Acoustic basses in the past, but they always seemed to compromise some aspect in playability, sound, and they are fragile when transporting. They are bulky, and just not my thing. My fretless jazz basses are sleek, sound great, and play great. if you like them, all is good, but buying one just to appease a few just isn't going to happen.

And if the bridge soloed on a J bass is your sound, an ABG surely isn't going to get that for you. If you bought an ABG for that jam, there's still no guarantee you're going to hear yourself any better if the guy running sound won't run bass in the monitor. If anything, an ABG would be more likely to affect the monitors due to increased potential feedback. Nobody is going to hear that bass unamplified, even you.
Also for me, although I can play a number of fretted basses with no problem, I'm a one fretless guy. Because it's fretless, I like to stick with one bass so I can get to know it intimately until the intonation is just like when I'm playing a fretted bass without looking at the frets. I picked my fretless ABG because of the way the neck and body felt, and because it rests in a position that's easier for me to intonate. I've own plenty of fretlesses, and stuck with my Azola because it just works better for me than the others. It would be harder to get the same intonation and feeling of confidence with another fretless.

 

[Honch]

Regarding all these folky, country acoustic players.

Is there anyone who've seen the follow up to "This Is Spinal Tap" movie? It's called "A Mighty Wind" and it's a pure send up to the folk music acts of US. Spinal Tap acoustic, of some sorts. More than one issue in this thread, is brought up there and ridiculed at, and made a parody of. Acerbic and then some. It's the same folks as in Spinal Tap. The fictional band is called The Folksmen. "Relegated to the status of a minor footnote in the annals of American folk music, the Folksmen would later be characterised as "the group who were too popular to be purist and too purist to be popular".

 

[JACink]

Actually, that's exactly how it works. In fact, it's how they determine the definitions for dictionaries.

Although this is a bit of a silly argument, as it is not relevant to the OP...

I agree that that is how new definitions of words are created, but they don't seem to have adopted that definition in the English dictionary yet.

According to Oxford dictionary:

Acoustic:

• 2(of popular music or musical instruments) not having electrical amplification.
  
  'a sad, gentle acoustic ballad'
  
  'old-fashioned acoustic instruments'

 

[SteveHeissner]

Yep, and if you happen to be a more accomplished player, you ought to provide support, encouragement and inspiration. Not ridicule or disdain. This is one of the things an open mic is for... new or unlearned musicians to cut their teeth and look for feedback from listeners or other musicians.

Thanks for pointing that out. Didn't mean to sound ridiculing but I may have come across that way. I view open mic the same way I view myself doing karaoke. All in fun.

 

[Double E]

Although this is a bit of a silly argument, as it is not relevant to the OP...

I agree that that is how new definitions of words are created, but they don't seem to have adopted that definition in the English dictionary yet.

According to Oxford dictionary:

Acoustic:

• 2(of popular music or musical instruments) not having electrical amplification.
  
  'a sad, gentle acoustic ballad'
  
  'old-fashioned acoustic instruments'

That does not matter... it is simply a widely accepted phenomenon that "acoustic" performances often have the sounds of the acoustic instruments amplified with a public address system for larger audiences. These events are still referred to as acoustic performances so that the participants know how to prepare and audiences know what to expect.

Here is another dictionary reference for you:

ped·ant
ˈpednt/
noun

1. a person who is excessively concerned with minor details and rules or with displaying academic learning.

It is a silly argument, so why argue?

 

[Deleted member 165050]

That does not matter... it is simply a widely accepted phenomenon that "acoustic" performances often have the sounds of the acoustic instruments amplified with a public address system for larger audiences. These events are still referred to as acoustic performances so that the participants know how to prepare and audiences know what to expect.

Here is another dictionary reference for you:

ped·ant
ˈpednt/
noun

1. a person who is excessively concerned with minor details and rules or with displaying academic learning.

It is a silly argument, so why argue?

Actually, and pedantry about pedantry apart, there is a good reason for debate. If I play acoustic DB with no pickup and turn up to an "acoustic" session where everyone else has an instrument containing as much onboard electronics as the average laptop and is plugged into a PA, I am not going to be heard. Especially if the PA guy is apprehensive about amplifying low frequencies. Round these parts an acoustic session usually means precisely that - no amplifiers, no PA. An open mic with a PA is something entirely different, and you'd expect to be amplified.

 

[Robroy]

That does not matter... it is simply a widely accepted phenomenon that "acoustic" performances often have the sounds of the acoustic instruments amplified with a public address system for larger audiences. These events are still referred to as acoustic performances so that the participants know how to prepare and audiences know what to expect.

Here is another dictionary reference for you:

ped·ant
ˈpednt/
noun

1. a person who is excessively concerned with minor details and rules or with displaying academic learning.

It is a silly argument, so why argue?

Actually, what I think of when I see "acoustic" is that I will not need to bring my ear protection.

 

[T_Bone_TL]

If it was an "acoustic jam", I'm darned if I know why there was even FOH or a monitor. Wooden music should be wooden music unless you are playing a very large room. And as a jam, yeah, expect some poor quality musicians - when anybody can get up and play, anybody does. I play with non-amplified acoustic instruments (fiddles, guitar, mandolins, banjo, whistles and a drum), and I play the upright as a non-amplified acoustic instrument that works non-amplified and can be heard that way. From everything I read, unless you get into an archtop ABG that's most of the way to being an upright (including "inconveniently large"), they don't really keep up on their own. When I got past pizz only and started using the bow, I can even need to back off a touch.

 

[Robroy]

If it was an "acoustic jam", I'm darned if I know why there was even FOH or a monitor. Wooden music should be wooden music unless you are playing a very large room. And as a jam, yeah, expect some poor quality musicians - when anybody can get up and play, anybody does. I play with non-amplified acoustic instruments (fiddles, guitar, mandolins, banjo, whistles and a drum), and I play the upright as a non-amplified acoustic instrument that works non-amplified and can be heard that way. From everything I read, unless you get into an archtop ABG that's most of the way to being an upright (including "inconveniently large"), they don't really keep up on their own. When I got past pizz only and started using the bow, I can even need to back off a touch.

I showed up at an "acoustic" set once for a band I was joining. I brought my Dean acoustic/electric. I also brought my JVC Kaboom I posted a picture of earlier. The idea was that because you can't really even hear the bass without at least SOME kind of amplification, that would have been just right.

I get there and he's got his full FOH set up, though the drummer is on one of those wooden boxes and the guitar is acoustic. I had to plug in. And since I thought it was going to be acoustic, I didn't bring the sound hole plug. Feedback was an issue all night. I had to keep my hands on the strings at all times.

And I didn't bring my ear plugs. It was really bad. I adjusted my "acoustic" expectations that day.

 

[N. Kentucky Bass]

I just responded to a Craig's list ad from a guitarist looking to launch an "acoustic project." He wanted a bass. I wrote back and said I my preference is the acoustic bass guitar because it fits in tiny tight spots for typical coffee house gigs. BUT it requires amplification etc. etc. Turns out he was completely down with that and did not want the ABG to be drowned out. In his mind, the definition of acoustic music is the specific sound of the instrument, not whether it is amplified. True, there are snobs who have other preferences. But it's good to clarify in advance what "acoustic" means in the leader's mind. Sometimes it's much ado about nothing.

 

[Robroy]

I just responded to a Craig's list ad from a guitarist looking to launch an "acoustic project." He wanted a bass. I wrote back and said I my preference is the acoustic bass guitar because it fits in tiny tight spots for typical coffee house gigs. BUT it requires amplification etc. etc. Turns out he was completely down with that and did not want the ABG to be drowned out. In his mind, the definition of acoustic music is the specific sound of the instrument, not whether it is amplified. True, there are snobs who have other preferences. But it's good to clarify in advance what "acoustic" means in the leader's mind. Sometimes it's much ado about nothing.

All instruments are acoustic - until you amplify them - with one exception: purely electronic instruments, e.g. keyboards.

I'm finding that "acoustic" means what the person wants it to mean. For me it has always meant "unamplified". I felt guilty even bringing my kaboom with my acoustic electric bass to an acoustic gig. But since all it does is bring it up to the levels of an UNAMPLIFIED acoustic guitar, I felt a little cheating was forgivable.

 

[rickdog]

Hopefully next week will find everyone in better spirits, the jam will go well and everyone will find a way to be tolerant of each other. Me? I just want my friend to be happy and enjoy our time on stage.

A good spirit in which to approach this! I read your original post and some (not nearly all) of this thread. My impression is that you ran into someone who had been told "don't put bass through the monitors" and that was it.

I've played many "acoustic" gigs with a fretless bass guitar and small (all-tube) amp. It works really well, and has been well-received almost everywhere. Turn it up just enough for you and your friend to hear it and take it from there.

 

[JGbassman]

If I've learned anything regarding this, an acoustic setting with instruments is quite different based on whom you are talking to. My interpretation was completely different than the host; neither of us were wrong, it's just what it was. If I'm involved in other acoustic settings from this point, I will make sure to ask further questions regarding set up, and what is available.

I have definitely learned something from these posts.

 

[RocknRay]

Yes there are folk/bluegrass acoustic purists who don't care for electric/amplified bass. But have a listen to the fine band Skyline, led by banjo player Tony Trischka, with Larry Cohen on P-bass. And I was turned on to them by a double-bass playing friend, no less!

 

[Max Blasto]

Actually, and pedantry about pedantry apart, there is a good reason for debate. If I play acoustic DB with no pickup and turn up to an "acoustic" session where everyone else has an instrument containing as much onboard electronics as the average laptop and is plugged into a PA, I am not going to be heard. Especially if the PA guy is apprehensive about amplifying low frequencies. Round these parts an acoustic session usually means precisely that - no amplifiers, no PA. An open mic with a PA is something entirely different, and you'd expect to be amplified.

No, that's not a good reason for debate.

If you show up to a gig as a bassist without any kind of amplification, you deserve to be unheard because you're not a pro.
Just because an ABG is usually plugged in for performances doesn't mean it's not an acoustic instrument.
If you can plug in an acoustic guitar, if a singer can use a microphone, and you somehow amplify your DB or ABG, you still have an acoustic lineup. The only difference is that the crowd can year you over the chit chat.

Just because you want to put a label on everything doesn't mean the label is right or that it was necessary in the first place.

 

[Deleted member 165050]

No, that's not a good reason for debate.

If you show up to a gig as a bassist without any kind of amplification, you deserve to be unheard because you're not a pro.

What does that have to do with an acoustic jam session?