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Bugera Veyron Now Available

#541
ebozzz said:
One more thing. In the scenario that I described previously regarding the two 500 watt RMS amps, if those amps have a significant difference in performance would it truly be an apples to apples comparison based on the specs?
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Many of your points aren't wrong, so dont take me the wrong way, but to me personally, that's all besides the point if I feel that a company is trying to be deceptive or misleading with their marketing.

Everyone can make their own judgement on that front - I'm not trying to sway anybody, just trying to explain my personal perspective.

Some marketing just doesn't pass the sniff test. And I have a pretty keen nose for it.
 
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#542
Kro said:
Many of your points aren't wrong, so dont take me the wrong way, but to me personally, that's all besides the point if I feel that a company is trying to be deceptive or misleading with their marketing.

Everyone can make their own judgement on that front - I'm not trying to sway anybody, just trying to explain my personal perspective.

Some marketing just doesn't pass the sniff test. And I have a pretty keen nose for it.
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Not taking anything the wrong way. Your argument is valid and I understand your logic. Let me ask this though. If you have an amp that is represented as being 500 watts RMS that does not perform similar to the majority of amps with the same rating, is that misleading from a marketing standpoint?
 
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#543
ebozzz said:
Ok, I think I understand your point and I’ll try my best to provide my humble perspective.

First, is there an agreed upon standard for the rating of amp specifications in the industry? My understanding is that there isn’t. I do know that the RMS rating is widely accepted but there seems to be some question about whether or not that standard is the best way to give an indication of how a bass amp should perform. If what I’ve said thus far is reasonably correct, I honestly feel that there needs to be an industry wide standard that governs how all amp specifications should be described. If that was in place, then each manufacturer should be held to the same standards, regardless of price, in my opinion.

Now for the second part. I don’t feel that most of the guys in this thread think that amp specs are unimportant. The way that I interpret what is being said is that they value the real world performance of the product more than the specs. Let me try to explain. Say that you have two amps that are rated at 500 watts RMS but there is clearly a difference in how one of the amps performs in comparison to the other. That amp just doesn’t seem to be as powerful and responsive as the other. I may not be doing the best job of explaining this but in the scenario that I just described the specs, while helpful, really wouldn’t be the best indicator of amp performance. In other words, on paper the amps appear to be the same. When in use, there’s a significant difference. Am I making sense?

If I have misrepresented anyone’s thoughts on the matter, please feel free to clear me up….
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A standard is a reference point. It is not always intended to exactly match the real world application. Standards create a baseline. In theory, that baseline can be used to say amp A rated at 500 WRMS (IEC), would be twice as powerful (in terms of wattage) as amp B rated at 250 WRMS (IEC), IF they tests are performed the same way by honest companies. Even though there is a standard, there will be variations between two different companies rating their amps to the same standard. This will happen for several reasons, such as variation in test equipment, environment, as well as human factors (interpretation of the test process and the results, bias, willingness and effort etc.). I can't say how far off one test can be from another without dishonesty or incompetency rearing their ugly heads, but I would say 10% variance is getting pretty close to someone is doing something very wrong. 50% would be unacceptable and 100% plus is probably an outright lie. Now with speaker or cab testing, it's more difficult to get accurate measurements.

This is a 10 year old paper, but if you are geeky enough, the half page history of the standards is Appendix A, page 10. Amplifier rating discussion starts on page 4, but get's a bit long (I didn't read it all), but if you scroll down until you see red text, you see the author's take on published spec's, usually their shortcomings. Invalid Link Removed

I like this paper, short and not going too deep. It's probably oriented towards pro audio, and it is about speakers, not amps. "The biggest single reason that specifications from different manufacturers are not consistent is a failure to specify the qualifying conditions for the measurement." That's a big one in bass gear. Invalid Link Removed

I don't see any need to clear you up. You don't look cloudy to me.
 
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#544
staccatogrowl said:
That Mesa has conscientious, scrupulous engineers like agedhorse, that care about providing useful, concise, and standard product data is something to account for at time of purchase. Cannot praise this type of pre-sale dislosure, actually a form of customer communication and service, enough.

As far as TB holding all manufacturers to the same standards? It's a grand concept, but how would it ever be realized? TB lacks any leverage to do so. However, members that truly care about the issue could pool their money to have an independent lab test and rate products according to the "TB Standard." TB could become the new entity placing the equivalent of an UL approval designation on a certain product. This is a different type of accountability: TB has a bank account to fund testing according to their defined standard. TB Kickstarter for this endeavor, anyone? Joint venture with Bass Gear Magazine, maybe?
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Not TB holding the manufacturers to the same standards. The industry itself holding the manufacturers accountable. The industry needs to police itself. How else can you expect everyone to play by the same rules?

I respect agedhorse. I loved Genz Benz products and still own a pair of their old cabs to this day. Of course, he was a big part of that organization. I've never had a problem with the performance of Genz Benz amp with respect to the wattage that it was rated at. Mesa amps have never made it to my care but I do feel that it's a quality brand.
 
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#546
If the standard is well written, properly executed and applicable, you shouldn't be able to tell any difference operationally (with regards to what the standard is testing, in this case power). The 10% deviation I guessed at, you would not be able to hear. What you might hear is that one amp sounds considerable louder, because it's focusing it's wattage at the frequencies that humans hear better (better meaning less SPL required to hear it). Also, it's a lot easier to get speakers to produce higher frequencies. Bass cabs rated at hundreds of watts might have a tweeter rated at 20 or 30 watts. So a lot of the difference might be cab capability, Eq and acoustics.
 
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#547
The difference between RMS and peak is purely a math function, for a sine wave (how amp power is specified), peak = 2x RMS for exactly the same signal. Which number gives a more impressive read to somebody who may not understand the details. There is also duty cycle that can factor into the calculation and skew the number depending on how it's used.

The Subway is approximately 1609 watts peak, a more impressive number for sure.
 
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#548
Ok, to sort of steer the discussion back to the topic of the amps that the thread is about I would like to add the following and it will possibly even add some context to my feelings about the Veyrons. I currently own two amps that are rated at 800 watts RMS at 4 ohms. When comparing my Veyron M to those two, it performs more like them than not. Each of those 800 watt options is more expensive than the Veyron at their regular prices.

Does the fact that my Veyron M is somewhat comparable to those two amps mean that it's not the 2000 watts peak that it claims? I don't know. Does that mean it's more than likely around 800 watts RMS? I don't know. I get where some are concerned that the wattage rating might be inflated or misrepresented but for me, I didn't go shopping thinking, "Wow! It's 2000 watts for $400.00!" For me I saw an amp which had a decent feature set and build quality for $400.00. Trying the amp only impressed me even more.
 
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#549
ebozzz said:
Not taking anything the wrong way. Your argument is valid and I understand your logic. Let me ask this though. If you have an amp that is represented as being 500 watts RMS that does not perform similar to the majority of amps with the same rating, is that misleading from a marketing standpoint?
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ebozzz said:
Does the fact that my Veyron M is somewhat comparable to those two amps mean that it's not the 2000 watts peak that it claims? I don't know. Does that mean it's more than likely around 800 watts RMS? I don't know. I get where some are concerned that the wattage rating might be inflated or misrepresented but for me, I didn't go shopping thinking, "Wow! It's 2000 watts for $400.00!" For me I saw an amp which had a decent feature set and build quality for $400.00. Trying the amp only impressed me even more.
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What's worse, having an amp marketed as 2000 watts, but performs like a solid 800w amp be mocked and not taken seriously because of misleading marketing, or having an amp with a more conventionally appropriate power rating - or even a conservatively rated one being consistently praised for exceeding expectations?

Brands like Trace Elliot (Trace watts?) among others have the reputation that they do for a reason, and there are definitely ways to promote a product's strengths (especially if the full story isn't or can't be told by specs alone) without resorting to tilting the playing field with this kind of embellishment.

As a marketer by trade, I can honestly say that even giving the impression of being misleading is something that good marketing teams avoid at all costs. The hit to a brand's reputation if called out is just too hard to repair. The good teams, are able to sell products by crafting a compelling and irresistible story solely from a product's credible attributes.

Not to pile on too much more, and you'll notice that I've actually not made any claims about any product's performance or quality, but I think you can see where I'm going with this. I really don't find it too surprising that a company that's not willing to do its own R&D beyond reverse engineering also isn't willing to put in the investment needed to market their products in an effective and respectable way.

Again, this is all just my personal perspective, and I have no ill will against any inanimate object, or any user who chooses to use any of the gear being discussed in this thread. I'm not a gear snob - just somebody who calls certain corporate practices as I see them. :)
 
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#550
Kro said:
What's worse, having an amp marketed as 2000 watts, but performs like a solid 800w amp be mocked and not taken seriously because of misleading marketing, or having an amp with a more conventionally appropriate power rating - or even a conservatively rated one being consistently praised for exceeding expectations?
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Kro, I hear you! The amp could be 2000 watts peak. That's what the manual states. I honestly couldn't tell you as I admittedly do not possess the knowledge/skills or resources to perform any testing. All that I can do is review the documentation, give the amp a trial run if I deem it's worthy and then make a decision. After doing those things I came to the conclusion that my Veyron was more than worth what it cost me. Not only that, it may even outperform it's price point. For me it was always more important that the amp be able to do what I needed it to do than whatever the ratings were. Of course, the ratings gave me an idea that it "might" fit the bill.....

As for the mocking, I don't really care. Unless someone contributes to "Charles' Gear Fund" I'm going to continue to buy what I feel works for my needs & pocket. Shoot, I'm sort of use to that anyway being a person who often goes left when everyone else goes right kind of guy when making my purchases. :D
 
#554
BadExample said:
NOOOOooooooo... was just pointing out a fella looking at Behringer.
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Ahhhhh... I've got you now. It's just a thread but you mean that it was stated that RMS values were used. If used there, why not on the Veyrons? Right? Of course, I can't answer that. All that I can tell you is that the Veyron manual states 2000 watts peak. Bugera would have to answer why they chose that method. They are not the only manufacturer who does though....
 
#555
Furthermore, I don't think that head was rated in RMS values. It's not in production anymore but i was able to find this from the manual.......

BX4500H.png
 
#556
I didn't really mean anything, just that it was rated at 400 WRMS and has questionable connectors. RMS vs. Peak is not really the issue most of us see with the specs, it's more that there is no known protocol used and Uli won't say how they come up with the numbers. The Veyron and maybe even some other gear might be an exception, but for the most part, their ratings are not very credible.
 
#560
HaphAsSard said:
Neither did Bugatti: the car's name was an homage to a racing (and test) driver of the past.

"Veyron: not just a river in Switzerland." :smug:
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Yeah, it's not like it's a new word. Fortunately I don't require new names for things I use. Otherwise I'd still be waiting for a Quilter Becs Blawk #$€ to replace my Shuttle 9.0.
;)
 
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