Bugera Veyron Now Available

[Brad Johnson]

When one company states their rated power in RMS terms while another company uses another term (say peak or undefined) resulting in a much higher published number (unrelated to actual performance) that a customer may base a purchasing decision on.

There have been several discussions on TB about holding all manufacturers to the same standards, but this doesn't appear (from this thread) to be as important to some of you guys under some (convenient) circumstances.

For whatever reason it's not happening. But people don't have the same issue with every manufacturer. The selective outrage is pretty obvious.

My Euphonic Audio Iamp 350 easily drove loads that SWR 750 and 900 amps struggled with. Yet I don't recall pitchforks being sharpened for SWR. And with the Bugera, people have suggested not believing your ears.

 

[ebozzz]

For whatever reason it's not happening. But people don't have the same issue with every manufacturer. The selective outrage is pretty obvious.

My Euphonic Audio Iamp 350 easily drove loads that SWR 750 and 900 amps struggled with. Yet I don't recall pitchforks being sharpened for SWR. And with the Bugera, people have suggested not believing your ears.

You know, I must have been rushing when I read @agedhorse 's statement previously. I think we would all welcome a set of ratings guidelines that held ALL amp manufacturers to the same standards but in my opinion, it would still only be a part of what what should be considered when looking at an amp....

 

[BadExample]

The specs should also allow one to match a cab and amp with a reasonable safety margin.

 

[GlassToMouth]

For whatever reason it's not happening. But people don't have the same issue with every manufacturer. The selective outrage is pretty obvious.

My Euphonic Audio Iamp 350 easily drove loads that SWR 750 and 900 amps struggled with. Yet I don't recall pitchforks being sharpened for SWR. And with the Bugera, people have suggested not believing your ears.

So much this. I don't have your experience or pedigree, but of the amps I've owned... Bugera Veyron 500W at 4 ohms, Peavey T-MAX 350W at 4 ohms, Hartke 3500 Mosfet 350W at 4 ohms, and SWR 550X 550W at 4 ohms. In terms of output, volume, and performance, I've placed them in my preferred order. The Veyron also happens to be the lowest priced and the SWR the highest priced of my collection.

 

[Brad Johnson]

You know, I must have been rushing when I read @agedhorse 's statement previously. I think we would all welcome a set of ratings guidelines that held ALL amp manufacturers to the same standards but in my opinion, it would still only be a part of what what should be considered when looking at an amp....

At best that might give you a ballpark idea of performance... but there are lots of variables. The Iamp I mentioned was rated at 350 @4 ohms but was also rated to do 1200 in bursts. As a bassist the ability to handle transients vs. a continuous signal is more important to me. And many times equally rated amps might sound very different. My Peavey Mini Mega was fine on paper yet I didn't care for the tone.

 

[Brad Johnson]

The specs should also allow one to match a cab and amp with a reasonable safety margin.

While that seems like a good idea it would have to take into consideration whatever the user might do.

 

[Brad Johnson]

Many of your points aren't wrong, so dont take me the wrong way, but to me personally, that's all besides the point if I feel that a company is trying to be deceptive or misleading with their marketing.

Everyone can make their own judgement on that front - I'm not trying to sway anybody, just trying to explain my personal perspective.

Some marketing just doesn't pass the sniff test. And I have a pretty keen nose for it.

Sniff tests are often wrong. And you could miss out on nice gear based on assumptions. I don't guess, I check gear out for myself.

 

[Brad Johnson]

So much this. I don't have your experience or pedigree, but of the amps I've owned... Bugera Veyron 500W at 4 ohms, Peavey T-MAX 350W at 4 ohms, Hartke 3500 Mosfet 350W at 4 ohms, and SWR 550X 550W at 4 ohms. In terms of output, volume, and performance, I've placed them in my preferred order. The Veyron also happens to be the lowest priced and the SWR the highest priced of my collection.

Funny thing... many look at an affordable price as a sign of low quality. Which doesn't explain my Made in the USA Quilter.

 

[Kro]

Sniff tests are often wrong. And you could miss out on nice gear based on assumptions. I don't guess, I check gear out for myself.

It could be the greatest gear in the world, but if how it's marketed doesn't sit well with me (or how it's developed, or manufactured for that matter), there's no way I'm going to support it with any of my dollars. There's enough good, respectable gear in every price range that I can easily afford to be picky.

It's a personal judgement call, but it goes for any company or product.

 

[Brad Johnson]

It could be the greatest gear in the world, but if how it's marketed doesn't sit well with me (or how it's developed, or manufactured for that matter), there's no way I'm going to support it with any of my dollars. There's enough good, respectable gear in every price range that I can easily afford to be picky.

It's a personal judgement call, but it goes for any company or product.

I get it. You do you. I wouldn't ignore gear that could work for me over it. A wrong assumption is still wrong.

 

[NigelD]

To me it's about honesty. Uli-watts are only part of the deception.

Does anyone have a functional 20 year old Uli-amp? A 10 year old Uli-amp? Crap quality IME.

I have some amps that are pretty old, still supported, and most likely will outlast me. I feel sorry for new fellas to bass gear that fall for the Uli-BS. Everyone should know they are buying form a liar before they pull the trigger.

Sorry Brad... love you bro. But cheap is what cheap is.

My bud has a 10yr old working Behringer that I owned for 7yrs. I have used a Veyron M for the last 18 months problem free.

 

[ebozzz]

At best that might give you a ballpark idea of performance... but there are lots of variables. The Iamp I mentioned was rated at 350 @4 ohms but was also rated to do 1200 in bursts. As a bassist the ability to handle transients vs. A continuous single is more important to me. And many times equally rated amps might sound very different. My Peavey Mini Mega was fine on paper yet I didn't care for the tone.

The peak ratings give me that as well. You know what? I preferred the MiniMAX to the MiniMEGA.

 

[Stinsok]

I bought one used (Mosfet) and have used it quite a bit over the last couple of years. I always run (2) 1x15'' cabinets at 4 ohms and push them pretty hard. It's been used on outdoor stages with awesome results. The amp is quiet and sounds good on stage as well as the FOH via the XLR out. The compressor sucks. The mid sweep is something I wish it didn't have. I fiddle with it all the time. It's light and I carry it in a $5.00 thrift store laptop case. I've been very satisfied with mine.

 

[BadExample]

While that seems like a good idea it would have to take into consideration whatever the user might do.

I think what you describe is outside the realm of reasonable. With a reasonable safety margin, you would not likely damage a cab (that falls within that safe margin) without doing something unreasonable with the amp, like cranking all the knobs. I'm not saying manufacturers should be responsible for damages, especially not if abused.

 

[Brad Johnson]

I think what you describe is outside the realm of reasonable. With a reasonable safety margin, you would not likely damage a cab (that falls within that safe margin) without doing something unreasonable with the amp, like cranking all the knobs. I'm not saying manufacturers should be responsible for damages, especially not if abused.

Okay... what would those specs look like?

 

[BadExample]

Without spending much time on it, something like:

X Watts RMS @Y omhs @Z% THD (lowest impedance used, higher impedance ratings optional.
Frequency response A Hz to B KHz (+db/-db)

THD should be rated at where the amp is intended to be used (sound good). If the power section does not break up well, this for be pretty low, but for those designed to break up nicely, this can be much higher.

I have no thoughts on all tube amplifiers.

 

[Brad Johnson]

What's worse, having an amp marketed as 2000 watts, but performs like a solid 800w amp be mocked and not taken seriously because of misleading marketing, or having an amp with a more conventionally appropriate power rating - or even a conservatively rated one being consistently praised for exceeding expectations?

Brands like Trace Elliot (Trace watts?) among others have the reputation that they do for a reason, and there are definitely ways to promote a product's strengths (especially if the full story isn't or can't be told by specs alone) without resorting to tilting the playing field with this kind of embellishment.

As a marketer by trade, I can honestly say that even giving the impression of being misleading is something that good marketing teams avoid at all costs. The hit to a brand's reputation if called out is just too hard to repair. The good teams, are able to sell products by crafting a compelling and irresistible story solely from a product's credible attributes.

Not to pile on too much more, and you'll notice that I've actually not made any claims about any product's performance or quality, but I think you can see where I'm going with this. I really don't find it too surprising that a company that's not willing to do its own R&D beyond reverse engineering also isn't willing to put in the investment needed to market their products in an effective and respectable way.

Again, this is all just my personal perspective, and I have no ill will against any inanimate object, or any user who chooses to use any of the gear being discussed in this thread. I'm not a gear snob - just somebody who calls certain corporate practices as I see them.

So Bugera didn't do their own R&D? A source for that non-shot would be nice.


My Trace Elliot AH600 stack was easily one of the most underwhelming rigs I've ever owned. Different strokes.

 

[Brad Johnson]

Without spending much time on it, something like:

X Watts RMS @Y omhs @Z% THD (lowest impedance used, higher impedance ratings optional.
Frequency response A Hz to B KHz (+db/-db)

THD should be rated at where the amp is intended to be used (sound good). If the power section does not break up well, this for be pretty low, but for those designed to break up nicely, this can be much higher.

I have no thoughts on all tube amplifiers.

The frequency response xhz-xkhz at whatever dB tell you pretty much nothing about what happens between the extremes. And tone controls can changes this. It's not like these are static devices.

I'm not anti-spec, I'm not going to ignore the blatant limitations with them. They can't tell the whole story, in fact they can miss a huge part of it... which can be misleading if you ignore that.

 

[Kro]

So Bugera didn't do their own R&D? A source for that non-shot would be nice.

That was absolutely a shot. I'm ready to be corrected here, but this is where reputation comes into play - as any more I automatically assume that if I see something from Behringer, or their most closely associated sub-brands, that it's just a reverse engineered clone of something else. Can you argue that there isn't a history there? Reputations are hard to change.

 

[Munjibunga]

Without spending much time on it, something like:

X Watts RMS @Y omhs @Z% THD (lowest impedance used, higher impedance ratings optional.
Frequency response A Hz to B KHz (+db/-db)

THD should be rated at where the amp is intended to be used (sound good). If the power section does not break up well, this for be pretty low, but for those designed to break up nicely, this can be much higher.

I have no thoughts on all tube amplifiers.

Amps using the same ICE power module rate them anywhere between 700 and 900 watts. Your suggestion to use THD as a criterion makes sense, because 700 watts at 1 percent THD may be the same as 900 watts at 10 percent THD.