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Build 4 - headless fretless chambered 6 string

The Citrons are special instruments. I had an AE5 with the Works electronics wise - dual mag pups + piezo bridge - very nice bass. 35" 19mm w 3" body depth.

The newer Swallows are 36" scale 16.5 spacing with a 4" thick body. I'd like one fretless. Kinda pricey or I would have done it.
 
@yoshi - I'd love to see a pic of the bass you're referring.
Here's the build thread: YoshiBass #2: A Headless Xmas Tree | TalkBass.com ! It's a bit ambiguous at the start but later settles on 5 string EADGC fretless, headless...less is more! I think i need to ditch the LEDs for fretless version though.

I guess I'll just keep on working at something that I think is going to work ok.
Really looking forward to the iterations. Probably worth making a mdf template of your current deisgn, neck 'n' all, and seeing how it is to grasp and balance (the thickness shouldn't matter). That said, at 6"4' - you should be fine if you strung up a canoe! I'm not quite that big!
 
Just came across John Pattitucci's new bass...

John Patitucci Takes His New Yamaha Custom Bass Out For a Spin (VIDEO) | Bassplayer

It's got me back thinking again about the overall size of the instrument and I think... I say, "I think", I wanna go as big as I can. The good news is, I've been thinking about the logistics of building such a body and I have a few things in my favor I reckon. I can easy put an arm relief on the front and a "rib" relief on the back. It'll be a monster, but heck, why not. I realized as I thought about it tonight, I've done most of the designing in my head already. I just need to get some details down on paper and build it.

Simple. Right? :cautious:
 
Talk bass is doing some weird, weird things for me at the mo... I can't even see the box and stuff round this text as I type, but I digress.

I've started asking serious questions on an acoustic guitar forum about how to put this thing together. To be honest, I'm not getting a lot of clarity. One thing that has come out of the discussion so far is, using a heavy headless bridge will make it harder to transfer vibration to any top. So that might need to be re-thought and used for another 6 string project. :(

Beyond that, I was hoping to build something like Nigel Forster's archtops. That too seems fraught for some reasons.

Hmm... That'll teach me to think outside the box. One thing I have nailed down is I want to use La Bella black tapewound strings. Course, as per usual I don't have the cash to buy them at the mo. :(
 
Glad to see I'm not the only one with builds that take years.... :)

... using a heavy headless bridge will make it harder to transfer vibration to any top...

But you're not using a headless bridge. You're using a headless tailpiece. You'll need to make a separate bridge, a la the Citrons you posted earlier in the thread (remember that far back? ;) ). Now, I'm no expert on acoustic instruments, but I do understand a bit of physics, and I think that you want the tailpiece to be rigid and stationary, and you will also want for the (necessarily separate) bridge to be located further up the body, where it can "transfer vibrations" to the top just fine.
 
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^ bahahahah! :laugh:

But yeah, in one picture you sum up ALL the challenges. :(

Glad to see I'm not the only one with builds that take years.... :)



But you're not using a headless bridge. You're using a headless tailpiece. You'll need to make a separate bridge, a la the Citrons you posted earlier in the thread (remember that far back? ;) ).

No... who said that... what's my name again? o_O

Now, I'm no expert on acoustic instruments, but I do understand a bit of physics, and I think that you want the tailpiece to be rigid and stationary, and you will also want for the (necessarily separate) bridge to be located further up the body, where it can "transfer vibrations" to the top just fine.

I've got a couple of issues;
A. the tailpiece weighs a tonne.
B. I want to build it in 36" scale. The tapewounds I like (La Bellas) are 38" to the end of the winding. So I don't have a lot of extra string to mess with at the tailpiece end.
C. Like you, I've NEVER built anything properly acoustic before. I'm wandering round in the dark while acoustic guitar builders watch me with infrahead headsets and say, "that guy is insane".

The dumb thing is in the end, I'm not really building an acoustic per se. At some level, I'm gonna have to just build something with a little too much bracing and then shave it back a bit... I guess... Right? #hasnorealidea
 
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^ bahahahah! :laugh:

But yeah, in one picture you sum up ALL the challenges. :(



No... who said that... what's my name again? o_O



I've got a couple of issues;
A. the tailpiece weighs a tonne.
B. I want to build it in 36" scale. The tapewounds I like (La Bellas) are 38" to the end of the winding. So I don't have a lot of extra string to mess with at the tailpiece end.
C. Like you, I've NEVER built anything properly acoustic before. I'm wandering round in the dark while acoustic guitar builders watch me with infrahead headsets and say, "that guy is insane".

The dumb thing is in the end, I'm not really building an acoustic per se. At some level, I'm gonna have to just build something with a little too much bracing and then shave it back a bit... I guess... Right? #hasnorealidea
If you use a tail piece that clamps at the bridge end and you secure the balls at the nut end it gives you allot more wiggle room for the strings.
 
@yoshi - I'd love to see a pic of the bass you're referring.

To be honest, I kinda ended up thinking the same sorts of things you were thinking in terms of width. The last thing you want is something that just gets in the way of your arms. I do think though, there is a way of building something quite large and getting used to getting your arms around it. I recently got this 000 guitar. It's not a Jumbo, but it took some getting used to with such a round bottom to the body.

WP_20141011_004_zps22bfea08.jpg


At the same time I'm pretty committed to a large sound chamber. Just need to find a way to make that work I guess. Steve Swallow has. This is his Citron bass.

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Anthony Jackson has also done a similar thing...
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I also think it's a matter of your own physique. I'm 6'4" with pretty large hands and long fingers. I've also played upright for a long time. The last 6 string I built has a large body on it and I find it pretty comfy to play in terms of the body. It's based on a 'O' sized resonator body. Here it is next to a dreadnought.

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I guess I'll just keep on working at something that I think is going to work ok.
Love that wood on the back of the Citron. Is it Black Limba, Kauri?
 
^ Will I can do that. It still leaves me with the same problem of heavy-ish tuners over the belly. In acoustic guitar thinking, I'd would want a light bridge and tailpiece to allow for the most vibration to be transferred to the top.
If you rigidly mount it to the tail I don't think it would effect acoustic volume, that would be dependent on having a long enough length.
 
Precisely. That's what I was mentioning above.
Oh ok, you mentioned the winding length making me think you were talking about using tuners that used the ball-end,
I've been thinking about this for my own 38ish" scale headless AEURBG build and I'm thinking of using a piece of aluminum or steel (something stiff) to get good down pressure and allow me to use cheaper Electric bass strings rather then expensive EUB strings.
 
^ Will I can do that. It still leaves me with the same problem of heavy-ish tuners over the belly. In acoustic guitar thinking, I'd would want a light bridge and tailpiece to allow for the most vibration to be transferred to the top.
Are you looking for light weight headless tuner options, or are you seeing if you can make what you currently have work?
 
Ok, so today I fished out all my timber for the build this afternoon. This is what I've got.

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On the left is the bear claw spruce top. It's been sitting under my router table along with the back, on the right. The issue, as you can see is the back is sizebly smaller than the top. As it stands, the current design is about 10mm to big length and widthwise to allow me to build it as I'd like. I'll talk about that a bit later though...

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I've got the neck blank out. It's slightly bowed, very slightly. Not enough to worry about though. It's been sitting in one position for a few years so that might account for it. I'll turn it over and let it settle.

WP_20160512_004_zpskyyhutq7.jpg

The fingerboard is also a bit cupped, but gluing it onto the neck will fix that. Jarrah tends to do that anyway.

So what to do? I think it might be worth a recap... What I was hoping to build was something in the same vain of this, Nigel Parker's amazing archtops.

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Nigel has built these with both solid bent sides, but also using a hollowed out slab body. If I want to use the back I've got glued up, it'll have to be smaller. If I want to build it as big as I'd like, that is bigger than a jumbo, I'll have to use a hogged out slab body. Like any serious builder, I've also spend a LOT of time thinking about having the bass the balance properly on a strap.

Right so after stressing a lot, time to face up to reality...
1. It's acoustically compromised. So the depth/size of the top doesn't matter that much.
2. Whether I use the headless tailpiece is not going to making that difference.
3. It's not going to sound exactly like an upright or an archtop.
4. It would be acceptable and doable to hang the strap off the headstock if I wanted to.

So, times a wasting. Time to draw up a proper design I like and get to work... ;)