Enjoy the benefits of a premium membership!
Upgrade Account
-
TalkBass has been independent since 1998. Add your voice.
Create a free account to reply to discussions, view embedded media, and browse with fewer display ads.
Join free Log in
Want zero display ads or expanded classifieds tools? Compare plans.
Build II - Paradox MJ5 - New design!
- Thread starter roberthabraken
- Start date
Hopkins
Commercial User
Wipe on poly is a hard shell finish that dries on the wood. Oil penetrates the wood and hardens in the wood. If you want a mirror shine poly or lacquer is what you want. Oil will give you a sheen or luster, but not as shiney as lacquer.
Many of these pre-formulated products are a mix of laquer (poly or others) or oil (Tung, linseed,etc) plus thinners in different proportions. With all the blah I forgot to answer your actual question, which is what benefit you have formulating your own poly v/s a ready to use product:
-Poly will not introduce a change in the color of the wood (indeed, I forgot to mention that Danish oil introduces an amber tone to the wood)
-Since you mix it you have better control of the viscosity and drying time.
-Probably cheaper
-Readily available in paint-hardware stores around you
I'd suggest you to do testing before doing the real thing (I'm sure it'll be your approach anyway) and give me a call, I'd be glad to share what I learned so far. In my experience, none of the step by step guides that I followed have worked, nor even the ones I hanged. What they do is provide useful info that serves as guidelines but I have always found better results deviating from them...
-Poly will not introduce a change in the color of the wood (indeed, I forgot to mention that Danish oil introduces an amber tone to the wood)
-Since you mix it you have better control of the viscosity and drying time.
-Probably cheaper
-Readily available in paint-hardware stores around you
I'd suggest you to do testing before doing the real thing (I'm sure it'll be your approach anyway) and give me a call, I'd be glad to share what I learned so far. In my experience, none of the step by step guides that I followed have worked, nor even the ones I hanged. What they do is provide useful info that serves as guidelines but I have always found better results deviating from them...
That's great info, and thanks for sharing!
When you say that poly doesn't amber, are you referring to a certain brand or if you make your own? My experiences with the off-the-shelf Home Depot type product (Min-Wax) is that it does have a gentle amber - although I find that to be a plus in almost every circumstance. It also helps the figure to "pop". The only time I didn't care for the amber effect is when I wanted a really white-ish Ash sort of look.
When you say that poly doesn't amber, are you referring to a certain brand or if you make your own? My experiences with the off-the-shelf Home Depot type product (Min-Wax) is that it does have a gentle amber - although I find that to be a plus in almost every circumstance. It also helps the figure to "pop". The only time I didn't care for the amber effect is when I wanted a really white-ish Ash sort of look.
The poly lacquer itself has no tint effect, neither the mineral spirits used (basically that's the mix I've been referring to as wipe on poly). It's the "lens effect" (the way the light reflects) plus the increased contrast that the coating produces over the wood what allows the grain to pop up so nicely, and not the tint that the coating may introduce. While you may want that amber tone because in some cases it can indeed make a nice effect, I rather decide myself whether I want to introduce a coloration to the finish, and if so, I'd like to chose that color.
By no means I'm saying that these ready to use product are bad or shouldn't be used. It's totally up to tastes.
I'm really pleased with the results and easiness of just preparing it myself, so I don't see the point of using those formulated ones.
By no means I'm saying that these ready to use product are bad or shouldn't be used. It's totally up to tastes.
I'm really pleased with the results and easiness of just preparing it myself, so I don't see the point of using those formulated ones.
No, although they surely have poly in them. These (Tru, Liberon, Danish) would be called wiping varnishes if you want to be technical, though 90% of people would just call them an oil finish. These wiping varnishes as explained further up, are a blend of oil and a resin (often Poly) to make them tougher and dry quicker. Tru oil is Linseed based, Liberon is Tung though they say theres some Linseed in there too. Danish is a blend of I'm not sure what but theres Tung in it I'm sure.
Polyurethane varnish is basically just that, you can get water based varieties and oil based, but neither would ever be called an oil finish. I'm not sure which brands of poly you have over there, we have Black Friars, Ronseal etc and I havent found any of them particularly tough.
Another vote for the Liberon from me, thats what I use, it goes really glossy with multiple coats. I have used home made ones too, but the Liberon does everything I need, so no need to bother for me.
Thanks guys! Really valuable information! This topic is not my best, so it's great to see you all join the discussion. I like the stories of the poly (both being wiped on and comparable to a sprayed lacquer regarding shine), but the good words on Liberon make that an attractive option too. My interest is also triggered by the home-brew wipe on poly and I wanted to go for Tru-oil at first (seen good results from dremy to back that up), so my shortlist of finishes besides the optional red dye are, in no particular order:
Currently, I have a computer crash to cope with (hard drive left on me, OS stopped working but files are recoverable; the ones that aren't are also in My Dropbox or in older backups, so nothing lost but time), so I'm making extra backups right now and I'm facing a re-install with a new HD before I can continue building. I need my CAD files to determine the neck thickness and the exact locations of the truss rod and carbon fiber rods to make the appropriate routing jigs or measuring templates for my carving adventure...
- home made wipe on poly
- Liberian
- Tru-oil
- stock poly (if I can find any)
Currently, I have a computer crash to cope with (hard drive left on me, OS stopped working but files are recoverable; the ones that aren't are also in My Dropbox or in older backups, so nothing lost but time), so I'm making extra backups right now and I'm facing a re-install with a new HD before I can continue building. I need my CAD files to determine the neck thickness and the exact locations of the truss rod and carbon fiber rods to make the appropriate routing jigs or measuring templates for my carving adventure...
Argh, that's never good. Our neighbours almost had a fire this morning and I daren't imagine what we would lose despite our regular backups if turned out to be one that spread to ours. Hope you can move beyond this temporary setback, and the bass will certainly wait for you.
I think your finishing options should be based on what is best for maintaining colour. Red is notorious for going off-colours such as pink so I would adjust finishing tactics to suit that, and nothing else. A hard(er) finish seems logical as a soft constantly maintained finish will no doubt not be easiest to use when trying to keep red nice and....red. Just a gut feeling.
I think your finishing options should be based on what is best for maintaining colour. Red is notorious for going off-colours such as pink so I would adjust finishing tactics to suit that, and nothing else. A hard(er) finish seems logical as a soft constantly maintained finish will no doubt not be easiest to use when trying to keep red nice and....red. Just a gut feeling.
Hi guys, just sayin' hello! Didn't make any progress over the last month, but I did not forget my build either. Just waiting for some time, courage and the right mindset to carve the neck. After that things could go fast.
I ordered my home brew (not by me though) wipe on poly in the meantime. So that's sorted. Now only the to-stain-or-not-to-stain decision is to be made regarding finishing the bass.
See you soon (with some progress, I do hope)!
I ordered my home brew (not by me though) wipe on poly in the meantime. So that's sorted. Now only the to-stain-or-not-to-stain decision is to be made regarding finishing the bass.
See you soon (with some progress, I do hope)!
The best advice I've seen on TB about carving a neck was;
" Just carve the damn thing...."
It's true.....Just do it!
Gaan met die banaan...hoppa..!
The best advice I've seen on TB about carving a neck was;
" Just carve the damn thing...."
It's true.....Just do it!
Gaan met die banaan...hoppa..!
Haha... ja, it's easy like that, but life get's in the way a bit.. been working on the house and having fun with my family
.Also, to be honest, I kinda lost interest. I'm sure it will get back in a while. I re-discovered an old hobby, model flying (and building of course). So I spent my free time outside, enjoying our nice summer, flying and getting my flight certificate. It's going really great and I found an absolutely great club, I'm really addicted, honestly. But when it's getting colder and less ideal flying weather, I will finish the bass.
I will absolutely finish the bass, don't worry, I am pleased with the results thus far and I have all the parts lying around already. Basically, I think I own a great five string bass in parts with an uncarved neck. So it would be stupid not to.
But for now, I guess I'm having a summer break
When I was a kid, we used to go watch those in the polder at sunday.
Sometimes you saw a guy jump in his car and chase his model plane cause it has flown out of reach of the remote....
Sometimes you saw a guy jump in his car and chase his model plane cause it has flown out of reach of the remote....
I don't blame you Rob. For one, I am the same with projects in that I would rather put them down in a satisfactory stage of semi-completion and pick them up with a clear focused head. Not doing so can easily lead to an otherwise perfect project collecting errors and faults.
Incidentally Rob, you mentioned a while back that you would like to see some of my own work? I started a bass a couple of weeks ago....
http://www.talkbass.com/forum/f57/5...ired-bass-black-rainbow-night-rainbow-916686/
Incidentally Rob, you mentioned a while back that you would like to see some of my own work? I started a bass a couple of weeks ago....
http://www.talkbass.com/forum/f57/5...ired-bass-black-rainbow-night-rainbow-916686/
When I was a kid, we used to go watch those in the polder at sunday.
Sometimes you saw a guy jump in his car and chase his model plane cause it has flown out of reach of the remote....
That's funny, luckily the reach of today's remotes is almost 2 miles...
That's a very good description of exactly my situation too
! I don't feel it's right to jump in while lacking motivation and feeling good about it. Since it's in a good state right now, I better don't ruin anything until I feel it's right to proceed.Yes indeed, great! I'm going to follow / subscribe.
... and I'm back again! 
Cleaned out the shop, made some space again and started working on the bass. It's not so warm anymore outside and it's dark right after dinner, so we're having better building conditions I guess.
I needed some motivation to start with and tried the neck with fingerboard, position marker dots, binding and frets on for the first time in it's future home. I found it a pleasure to look at, seeing the body laminates, neck woods binding, markers and such coming together (but still without the pickguard):
Link Removed
I also made this preview shot of the back for the first time. It's cool and a bit understated opposed to the front (even more with the intended pickguard on it), but that's a cool contrast I think:
So, I marked the shape of the heel transition as a guidance for shaping the neck while it's in there:
And the next step was to make a jig for routing the slope of the neck shape into the unshaped neck. I do not want to make this angle and straight line from the heel to the volute by hand, so I'll route the correct angle in there before I start carving the neck. So tonight I made this:
It's a tight fit around the neck, one or two clamps should be enough to fix it while routing. I only need to build in some stops to prevent cutting into the heel or the volute. I made the angle by drilling a hole and putting a dowel in at one end, which I then adjusted until I got the right angle, securing it with thin CA afterwards. Then I glued some blocks I had lying around to the rails to fix them in place and make them sturdy enough (otherwise they would rock on the dowels). The other end of the rails is secured by thin CA too. Very quick and easy to make.
So, when this is fully cured and I'm feeling lucky, I'll starting routing the neck. That would be the last routing job on this instrument. After that it's only hand shaping, drilling and sanding what's left...
Cleaned out the shop, made some space again and started working on the bass. It's not so warm anymore outside and it's dark right after dinner, so we're having better building conditions I guess.
I needed some motivation to start with and tried the neck with fingerboard, position marker dots, binding and frets on for the first time in it's future home. I found it a pleasure to look at, seeing the body laminates, neck woods binding, markers and such coming together (but still without the pickguard):
Link Removed
I also made this preview shot of the back for the first time. It's cool and a bit understated opposed to the front (even more with the intended pickguard on it), but that's a cool contrast I think:
So, I marked the shape of the heel transition as a guidance for shaping the neck while it's in there:
And the next step was to make a jig for routing the slope of the neck shape into the unshaped neck. I do not want to make this angle and straight line from the heel to the volute by hand, so I'll route the correct angle in there before I start carving the neck. So tonight I made this:
It's a tight fit around the neck, one or two clamps should be enough to fix it while routing. I only need to build in some stops to prevent cutting into the heel or the volute. I made the angle by drilling a hole and putting a dowel in at one end, which I then adjusted until I got the right angle, securing it with thin CA afterwards. Then I glued some blocks I had lying around to the rails to fix them in place and make them sturdy enough (otherwise they would rock on the dowels). The other end of the rails is secured by thin CA too. Very quick and easy to make.
So, when this is fully cured and I'm feeling lucky, I'll starting routing the neck. That would be the last routing job on this instrument. After that it's only hand shaping, drilling and sanding what's left...
I might have mine finished first, Rob. 
Does this build still retain zen perfection in your head still?
Does this build still retain zen perfection in your head still?
Thanks guys. Don't exactly know what you mean by that Prostheta, but everything still goes according to plan.
Tonight I took the plunge! The last routing job.. luckily it went just great. I first made a template of the backside of the headstock to determine the shape of the volute and drew it onto the neck:
Link Removed
Followed by a line that indicates the end of the routed part of the neck (the volute itself will be done completely by hand, of course):
Link Removed
Clamped the neck into the jig I made, checked everything about three times and started routing. I plunged it only about half a mm a time, so the play would be minimal (opposed to routing rather deep at once, stressing the bit a lot more and thus resulting in a less smooth routed plane). Here I am about halfway:
Link Removed
And we're ready! I reached my desired thickness of 21.5 mm @ 1st fret rather well, just a few tenth of a mm above that, but I'll probably sand that off in the process anyway. I'm very pleased it went this smooth! It's the last job with the router, and a relief I didn't had any accidents.. and my math was good too: no sign of the truss rod
Link Removed
And a close up of the headstock:
Link Removed
And one more from the side:
Now the fun part can start! See you next time,
Tonight I took the plunge! The last routing job.. luckily it went just great. I first made a template of the backside of the headstock to determine the shape of the volute and drew it onto the neck:
Link Removed
Followed by a line that indicates the end of the routed part of the neck (the volute itself will be done completely by hand, of course):
Link Removed
Clamped the neck into the jig I made, checked everything about three times and started routing. I plunged it only about half a mm a time, so the play would be minimal (opposed to routing rather deep at once, stressing the bit a lot more and thus resulting in a less smooth routed plane). Here I am about halfway:
Link Removed
And we're ready! I reached my desired thickness of 21.5 mm @ 1st fret rather well, just a few tenth of a mm above that, but I'll probably sand that off in the process anyway. I'm very pleased it went this smooth! It's the last job with the router, and a relief I didn't had any accidents.. and my math was good too: no sign of the truss rod
Link Removed
And a close up of the headstock:
Link Removed
And one more from the side:
Now the fun part can start! See you next time,
Still watching with anticipation. Really nice work so far!
I think it'd look better without a pickguard, but if it's got to have one, the one you've come up with is pretty cool.
I'm just not a fan of pickguards. JMO.
Either way, really looking forward to the finished bass.
wraub
I think it'd look better without a pickguard, but if it's got to have one, the one you've come up with is pretty cool.
I'm just not a fan of pickguards. JMO.
Either way, really looking forward to the finished bass.
wraub
Thanks!! We'll see how it evolves, I deliberately wait with drilling the holes for the pickguard to keep my options open, but I guess it's going to be on there in the end
.
