here is something for you... Ashdown MAG 410 T Deep... Freebie
Soundwoofer - Impulse Response Library
yeah, the Pulse 10 sounds great in the sound samples... tempted...
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here is something for you... Ashdown MAG 410 T Deep... Freebie
Soundwoofer - Impulse Response Library
to quote my own post #346
The point of it all is to have different cab options for headphone practice/playalong to load into my stomp box IR loader.
I have downloaded most of the packs mentioned in this thread. Some of the single mix IR files from Dr. Bonkers, SNB or Shift Line are quite okay.
However, I had a reality check once I reverted back to my old trusted Tech21 VT Bass, first generation with the always on cab sim.
The VT bass, though limited to Ampeg(ish) tones, does this for my application better than any IR loaded into the Radar IR loaded.
Frankly, the VT Bass is really, really nice (not only) for this application.
Signal chains. Finally getting close to the original one, but with more flexibility/options but with a lot more toys involved.
bass -> Tech21 VT Bass -> Rolls PM351 -> Sennheiser HD555
bass -> DG HL comp -> PF 20T transformer out -> Mooer Radar w. Pulse 15 playing style IRs -> Rolls PM351 -> Sennheiser HD555
What can I say, man's gotta have a hobby...
jacoby75
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I have a love/hate relationship with IR's. They sound so good in theory. From time to time I'll try it and like it for a while, but ultimately decide that my direct tone is better/punchier. Granted, I don't do studio work at the moment, where I think they would shine brightest. I'm mostly just playing in churches and locally. So there is a lot of functionality/tweakability to IR's that I will never access or need. The main benefit for me is making dirt/overdrive pedals sound better without an amp.
A few years back I tried a DSM OCSD (not an IR, I realize, but a cab sim of sorts). LOVED it at first, but ultimately just felt like it muddied my sound after a while and got rid of it. Last year I tried the Shift Line Cab Zone LE, and later the X. Some of the IR's sounded really good, and it made headphone jamming fun. But after some time I again decided that I was better off just patching my direct tone to the board and/or amp. I felt like I was losing something with the IR.
Now I have a Two Notes Torpedo M+ on the way eventually (pre-ordered). I don't know why I keep doing it to myself. But what I've heard online I kind of like. We'll see if that translates into any live functionality/usability, or if it remains relegated to more of a novelty act for me.
Part of the problem for me is preferring to keep things simple. I don't have the time/patience to be tweaking a ton of parameters on the computer to find a great tone. That's largely why I prefer analog pedals over digital. The Shift Line was DEAD simple. Just 2-3 knobs. Stick your favorite IR's in there and off you go. But in some respects it was not tweakable enough to keep me happy, and I ultimately liked my direct tone better in the end. And going into a computer and using something like Audacity to tweak or combine IR's is just more work and time than I'm willing to put in. And with the SL you had to either upload IR's onto an SD card or plug it into your computer to load IR's (depending on the model). I spent so much time finding, downloading, tweaking, uploading and switching between IR's that it just wasn't fun anymore.
I'm hoping the Two Notes combines the tweakability that would be necessary to make it sound good with minimal effort - no more no less, unless you want it - and actually sounds good enough to keep me interested. I will definitely want to upload some of the IR's I have acquired over the past year or so, so I'm hoping that's a simple process. The main reason why I wanted a cab sim (again) was because I was tired of spending all of this time dialing in tone(s) on my pedalboard/IEM rig, only to have it sound so different when I plug it into an actual amp, and then have to tweak everything all over again. I want a more consistent tone from headphones to FOH, but nothing too drastic. And I love the punch of a 4x10 cabinet, which I can't get through headphones. Plus, there's nothing wrong with the occasional B15 cab sim just for fun.
In the meantime, using the Broughton SVPre combined with the RFE, which is a cab sim-ish EQ filter pedal, has me quite pleased. The Two Notes will be hard pressed to prove itself more useful than that. We'll see.
A few years back I tried a DSM OCSD (not an IR, I realize, but a cab sim of sorts). LOVED it at first, but ultimately just felt like it muddied my sound after a while and got rid of it. Last year I tried the Shift Line Cab Zone LE, and later the X. Some of the IR's sounded really good, and it made headphone jamming fun. But after some time I again decided that I was better off just patching my direct tone to the board and/or amp. I felt like I was losing something with the IR.
Now I have a Two Notes Torpedo M+ on the way eventually (pre-ordered). I don't know why I keep doing it to myself. But what I've heard online I kind of like. We'll see if that translates into any live functionality/usability, or if it remains relegated to more of a novelty act for me.
Part of the problem for me is preferring to keep things simple. I don't have the time/patience to be tweaking a ton of parameters on the computer to find a great tone. That's largely why I prefer analog pedals over digital. The Shift Line was DEAD simple. Just 2-3 knobs. Stick your favorite IR's in there and off you go. But in some respects it was not tweakable enough to keep me happy, and I ultimately liked my direct tone better in the end. And going into a computer and using something like Audacity to tweak or combine IR's is just more work and time than I'm willing to put in. And with the SL you had to either upload IR's onto an SD card or plug it into your computer to load IR's (depending on the model). I spent so much time finding, downloading, tweaking, uploading and switching between IR's that it just wasn't fun anymore.
I'm hoping the Two Notes combines the tweakability that would be necessary to make it sound good with minimal effort - no more no less, unless you want it - and actually sounds good enough to keep me interested. I will definitely want to upload some of the IR's I have acquired over the past year or so, so I'm hoping that's a simple process. The main reason why I wanted a cab sim (again) was because I was tired of spending all of this time dialing in tone(s) on my pedalboard/IEM rig, only to have it sound so different when I plug it into an actual amp, and then have to tweak everything all over again. I want a more consistent tone from headphones to FOH, but nothing too drastic. And I love the punch of a 4x10 cabinet, which I can't get through headphones. Plus, there's nothing wrong with the occasional B15 cab sim just for fun.
In the meantime, using the Broughton SVPre combined with the RFE, which is a cab sim-ish EQ filter pedal, has me quite pleased. The Two Notes will be hard pressed to prove itself more useful than that. We'll see.
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It's less than you think. I just tried to substitute my cab with a silent cab to stay as close as possible to my normal playing.... Then I realized that the signal to my headphone was just too dynamic, so I put a compressor in front of my amp. Pretty pleased with things right now.
Should last at least a couple of months/weeks/days before I get that itch again......
Man I think you and I are more similar in our needs and expectations than I realised. I initially got into IRs as I wanted my DI to FOH and in-ear sound to be as close to my live rig sound as possible. I love the sound of my live rig, but DIing to a FOH system or straight to in-ears always sounded different (usually harsh and bass shy due to using mild overdrive). I figured sending a cabsim'd signal to FOH and IEMs (but leaving the cabsim off signal to my stage rig) would get me into a ballpark tone that I was happy with.....but to this point in time I haven't found that medium. I'm not sure what the answer is but I'm thinking in the same vein as yourself - I think I need to peel back the obsession with cab IRs (that are definitely great for direct recording) and come up with a different approach to dialling in my sound mostly to FOH.
These about sum it up for me as well, I think.
And for the scattered freelance studio work I've done, the recording engineer has just had me plug directly into the board and they put their own EQ/IR/etc on the bass channel. If I ever seriously get into regular session work, I'd just invest in something like a Noble, Khan or some other kind of tube DI and call it done, Sean Hurley style.
5sg.
jacoby75
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Right. I haven't done any studio work in probably 10yrs. But even back then, and long before then, it was just plug your bass into the board and be done. Everything else was done post in ProTools or with IR stuff by the engineer. I highly doubt anybody would show up with a Two Notes or a Shift Line and the engineer would say, "Yeah! Let's use that!" They're going to want to have as much control over the tone as possible and will shape the EQ in post to best fit the song as they see fit. You're better off just having a great DI. But even then, you'll probably be plugging into some $5,000 channel strip or tube pre in the studio and won't need the DI either. (Disclaimer: With one exception so far in my experience. Several years ago I showed up to a home studio where the engineer just had a Mac, an interface, and a Tech21 Bass Driver. When I pulled out my Demeter rack pre, he was quite thrilled with the tone I was getting from that. So there are exceptions.)
Even Gregor (is that his name?) in the "Bass The World" Youtube demo of the Two Notes Cab M raves about it. But he notes that he likes the "Fat Papa" cab sim so much that he wants to get the actual cab for his studio. Not that he'll use the Two Notes for his recording in the future. But for smaller, independent, self-recording on a laptop stuff or something, I'm sure you could get by just fine with something like the Two Notes or Shift Line.
I think for me, though, it's more going to be about something fun to jam with at home, or as a way to dial in my tone more precisely so that when I do plug into an actual amp, it's not so night and day different from what I'm hearing in my headphones. We'll see.
On the other hand, I could see how it could be far more useful for guitarists on a practical level, when they play gigs where they can't crank up their miked cabinets.
jacoby75
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There is something about cab simmed tone that is really delicious. I'm listening right now to a "The Winery Dogs" live album, and Sheehan's tone is ridiculous. I know there are a ton of variables that go into his tone, including gear and technique. I can only assume that there is a direct signal and a mic'd cab live that they're recording. And then probably doing a ton in post. But there is something special to what I'm assuming is the mic'd cab sound. It's the resonance, the physical and auditory sensation of actually moving air, a three-dimensional aspect that is hard to approximate without a cab sim or actual cab of some kind. It's that difference you hear and feel when playing through an actual cab vs in-ears or headphones.
When I tried the DSM OCSD for the first time, I was blown away. It was the "resonance" knob that made all of the difference in the world. It gave that sensation of moving air. But ultimately I lost some of the power and punch of my clean signal. It's a delicate balance. Maybe the trick is not just sitting for hours trying to dial in the right tone with these fancy cab sims. But picking something and actually trying it in a mix. Like, playing along with a recording or something. Or splitting your signal so you can mix the mic'd cab sim and your direct signal somehow. As I understand it, engineers these days are typically combining a mic'd and a direct bass signal. I don't think there's a way to do that with the Two Notes. But in a studio, clearly. That will be difficult to replicate live, though.
I think part of it is also that slight bit of natural reverb that comes from miking a cab. I tried adding a touch of reverb to my signal in the past, and it was fun. It gave it a bit more of that 3D quality, but ultimately I decided it was not worth it.
I'm thinking the combination of the Two Notes cab sim with their room or studio reverb might be the ticket. I just wish there was a way to blend in my clean signal. Maybe there is? That would probably be the perfect tone . . . if there is such a thing.
An IR is more than just an EQ curve. It captures the environment in which the IR was captured, as well. It is both frequency and time. Unfortunately, the length of IRs typically used for cab sim purposes aren't long enough to get much of that environment.
jacoby75
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Touche. I do remember reading that the length of the IR can make a difference in quality. I reckon that would explain it.
Well the goal of an IR is to simulate a miced amp, so you should only use that where you could/would (should ?) have used a miced amp instead.
On bass you often want a DI anyway, so IRs are not a good solution for those cases.
Regarding the length it's short on purpose, it's an IR not a reverb
It's really a very rare case that also capturing the reflections from the room would help your tone.
jacoby75
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Right. Reflections would be less about tone and more about that “spacial, elusive, 3D” sound thing, I think.
Maybe.
Myself, I was not yet able to capture an IR which would not sound better taken in a matte room (with some reverb added downstream if needed) than in a reverberant room.
But there's also the practical aspect of being able (or not) to move a big bass rig to several great-sounding rooms one after the other so that you can compare.
Or maybe the fact that if you want bass extension and not much unwanted resonances you need a big room and will thus also get a longish reverb time (or you need a big but super damped room, a well-designed cinema maybe ? not so easy).
Even this "3d" impression, I found it easier to get it using the right DI/preamp than IRs.
Unless we talk about two different things here, 3d can be different things to different people.
Anyway I'm not an expert on anything so take that as you will of course
Maybe I'm just rambling after a long day of work ..
Myself, I was not yet able to capture an IR which would not sound better taken in a matte room (with some reverb added downstream if needed) than in a reverberant room.
But there's also the practical aspect of being able (or not) to move a big bass rig to several great-sounding rooms one after the other so that you can compare.
Or maybe the fact that if you want bass extension and not much unwanted resonances you need a big room and will thus also get a longish reverb time (or you need a big but super damped room, a well-designed cinema maybe ? not so easy).
Even this "3d" impression, I found it easier to get it using the right DI/preamp than IRs.
Unless we talk about two different things here, 3d can be different things to different people.
Anyway I'm not an expert on anything so take that as you will of course
Maybe I'm just rambling after a long day of work ..
Since guitarists have been at the cab sim IR game for a while longer than bassists, you can find a lot of discussion about the comparison in application of short 20ms IRs vs. longer IRs. [Treat yourself to an internet search: "impulse response resolution vs length", and look for a guy named Jay Mitchell, who - though a polarizing figure, it seems - knows quite a bit about the topic of impulse responses.]
Many, if not most, cabinet IRs are of the close mic'd variety, and it's probably a default choice since most live performance bass cab mic'ing is done at close distance. Not sure if this is more out of necessity (S/N and bleed) vs. truly preferring the sound of a close-mic'd speaker. But if close-mic'd tone is what you know an love, cab IRs can work well for you straight away.
Meanwhile, most bassists, who aren't also experienced behind a mixing desk, have grown accustomed to the way their cabinet sounds from some number of feet of distance. Distance cab IRs are fewer in number, and can be a little off-putting upon initial audition. But if you find a nice series of distance mic'd bass cabs, work with them and try them in context. Studio distance mic'ing a bass cabinet is something that has been known to be a common technique.
I think there is still a LOT of work to be done with cab sims for the bass community that seeks to use them for pure DI solutions. IMHO and in my experience, getting a really good bass tone via IR capture requires a lot of effort and a modeler/IR playback device capable of doing more than just serial path, mono cabinet IRs. I've been a big proponent of IRs, and have used them satisfactorily over many years...BUT...I do think it is a technology in need of improvement before it is more of a "turnkey to happiness" process. And I don't have any easy answers to share.
Many, if not most, cabinet IRs are of the close mic'd variety, and it's probably a default choice since most live performance bass cab mic'ing is done at close distance. Not sure if this is more out of necessity (S/N and bleed) vs. truly preferring the sound of a close-mic'd speaker. But if close-mic'd tone is what you know an love, cab IRs can work well for you straight away.
Meanwhile, most bassists, who aren't also experienced behind a mixing desk, have grown accustomed to the way their cabinet sounds from some number of feet of distance. Distance cab IRs are fewer in number, and can be a little off-putting upon initial audition. But if you find a nice series of distance mic'd bass cabs, work with them and try them in context. Studio distance mic'ing a bass cabinet is something that has been known to be a common technique.
I think there is still a LOT of work to be done with cab sims for the bass community that seeks to use them for pure DI solutions. IMHO and in my experience, getting a really good bass tone via IR capture requires a lot of effort and a modeler/IR playback device capable of doing more than just serial path, mono cabinet IRs. I've been a big proponent of IRs, and have used them satisfactorily over many years...BUT...I do think it is a technology in need of improvement before it is more of a "turnkey to happiness" process. And I don't have any easy answers to share.
jacoby75
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Yeah, if it's going to take that much effort, I'm probably out. Look me up when it's easier, lol.
Yep for live mic'ing. And a little change in mic position at close mic'ing makes a big difference in sound As @OldogNewTrick has shown above.
For the average player what they hear is not their ear next to the speaker. What the hear and remember is some distance away from the cab. And off axis. In a studio with live walls, or treated, the room contributes to what they hear.
I like what some of the IRs do to include many different mic placement and different rooms so you can chose close mic'd and/or room mic'd. Of course there are room IR's (reverb) you can add after the cab IR also.
I initially wanted to use cab IRs to help my DI'd tone sound closer to my actual live rig sound. In my mind it would work, but in reality I've found the only time it does is in an acoustic duo setting where it's just 2 vox, acoustic guitar and my bass direct to board (no amp/cabinet). Playing in a band setting I haven't found that send a signal to FOH with a cab SIM has really worked or sounded like I want it to.
I think will still pursue this, but maybe with a much simpler HP/LPF pedal ala Broughton just top clean up rumble and harsh top end. I'm never in the position live to actually mic a cab.
For direct recording however cab IRs are great. Direct to a DAW each can impart a tone or era based flavour perfectly.
I think will still pursue this, but maybe with a much simpler HP/LPF pedal ala Broughton just top clean up rumble and harsh top end. I'm never in the position live to actually mic a cab.
For direct recording however cab IRs are great. Direct to a DAW each can impart a tone or era based flavour perfectly.
Sure, the mic distance is basically your wet/dry setting when recording an instrument in a room.
What I meant was that I never succeeded to capture (or find/buy from a 3rd party) an IR which would replicate that correctly, it never sounded as good.
jacoby75
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Broughton dropped the RFE today. Go get you some! It's the next best thing to a cab IR.
