Can You Tell The Difference??? ASH vs. ALDER

[leegreenman]

So let's do the same test by changing the neck/fingerboard woods on one of the basses , or even on the same bass . And please not rosewood/maple vs maple/maple. A real deal would be wenge/ovangkol vs rosewood/maple.

Regardless of the parameters, I tend to think most people would pretty much hold fast to their existing beliefs.

 

[-=DanAtkinson=-]

So let's do the same test by changing the neck/fingerboard woods on one of the basses , or even on the same bass . And please not rosewood/maple vs maple/maple. A real deal would be wenge/ovangkol vs rosewood/maple.

Sorry to disappoint you, but that's exactly the test I'll be posting tomorrow night. Rosewood vs. Maple. Why? Because Maple/Rosewood and Maple/Maple account for about 80% of the necks on the market, I would guess.

And by the way, to my ears the fretboard wood has MUCH more impact on the tone than the body wood. But we'll see what the consensus is.

 

[leegreenman]

Amen to that.

But for me personally, if the majority of folks had picked the right answer, I wouldn't have cared. I would have said "I stand corrected" and smiled about it.

I think most of us are like that. But many are not.

While I try not to fall into this trap, unfortunately, I realize I often do.

 

[fish slapper]

Sorry to disappoint you, but that's exactly the test I'll be posting tomorrow night. Rosewood vs. Maple. Why? Because Maple/Rosewood and Maple/Maple account for about 80% of the necks on the market, I would guess.

And by the way, to my ears the fretboard wood has MUCH more impact on the tone than the body wood. But we'll see what the consensus is.

Eggsalent (Monty Burns voice).

I would like a fret-less comparison of ebony vs. cocobolo.

 

[leegreenman]

Sorry to disappoint you, but that's exactly the test I'll be posting tomorrow night. Rosewood vs. Maple. Why? Because Maple/Rosewood and Maple/Maple account for about 80% of the necks on the market, I would guess.

And by the way, to my ears the fretboard wood has MUCH more impact on the tone than the body wood. But we'll see what the consensus is.

Looking forward to it.

 

[Flaked Beans]

Sorry to disappoint you, but that's exactly the test I'll be posting tomorrow night. Rosewood vs. Maple. Why? Because Maple/Rosewood and Maple/Maple account for about 80% of the necks on the market, I would guess.

And by the way, to my ears the fretboard wood has MUCH more impact on the tone than the body wood. But we'll see what the consensus is.

Subscribed.

 

[Batmensch]

I await your neck test with bated breath, Dan. I can't wait to see the response to this one, whatever your results..

 

[Jim C]

Looking forward to the neck tests.
My suggestion would be to record exactly the same way; use 1 body, swap necks, same charts, and keep the test straight up so we can get good data without the problems
.02

 

[-=DanAtkinson=-]

Looking forward to the neck tests.
My suggestion would be to record exactly the same way; use 1 body, swap necks, same charts, and keep the test straight up so we can get good data without the problems
.02

Yes, no trickery this time. I promise!

 

[Waterpilot]

Yes, no trickery this time. I promise!

Someone will still find something to complain about...

I'm really looking forward to the necks though. I didn't really have an opinion as to whether or not the body's make a difference but I do on the necks! Haha Should be good education for me.

 

[johndough247]

Sorry man, just jumped on this thread due to the newest posts thing.

I did not read the answer before listening and I definitely heard the difference right away on the 1 recordings...there's a slightly thicker low-mid to the alder clip, the ash clip had a more exaggerated and very familiar to me j-bass mid-scoop to it (first bass was an ash fender J, and owned several more ash basses since then). I kept saying to myself on the 2 recordings that something's not right cause they both sound thick like the first alder clip, started making me question my ears (never again ears! lol). IMO/IME there seems to be a shift in midrange emphasis between ash and alder, alder has more low mids, thus the 'warmth' and ash has more high mids (and most times less lower mids), thus the 'snappiness' of the sound.

The sounds are somewhat similiar but, I really don't think this test proves nothing more than:
1) they're somwhat close enough to approximate each other with EQ, playing technique, amps, etc
2) the people listening who didn't hear the difference are too old, too deaf and/or didn't have good enough speakers/headphones to hear the nuances (sorry if that sounds harsh but it's a fact of life guys, we lose our hearing). Speaking from an audio engineer standpoint.

 

[Lowbrow]

I didn't listen to the clips and just went to comment #79 for the results.

What I read there - the revelation of the misstated testing conditions, and especially the highlighted comments by previous posters sincerely analyzing these mislabeled clips - seems to be every bit as much an attempt to make those who disagree with the OP look foolish as it was an attempt to prove an opinion.

I find the need for trickery - and what amounts to mockery - rather mean spirited. If the sound difference between body woods is as small as the results suggest, a 'straight' test should have proven this just as easily as a misrepresented one.

 

[Russell Bergum]

I didn't listen to the clips and just went to comment #79 for the results.

What I read there - the revelation of the misstated testing conditions, and especially the highlighted comments by previous posters sincerely analyzing these mislabeled clips - seems to be every bit as much an attempt to make those who disagree with the OP look foolish as it was an attempt to prove an opinion.

I find the need for trickery - and what amounts to mockery - rather mean spirited. If the sound difference between body woods is as small as the results suggest, a 'straight' test should have proven this just as easily as a misrepresented one.

+1

 

[Munjibunga]

Ok, drumroll please........

1-A is Ash, 2-A is Alder.

2-A is Alder, 2-B is Alder.
(I literally played it once, then played it again on the same bass)

So only 14% of people got it right. Was using Alder for both Lemon Song clips a dirty trick? Yep. But it was an educational dirty trick, for sure. Let's take a look at some quotes about the Lemon Song clips:

"Lemon Song A has a presence in the midrange that I generally associate with alder, and Lemon Song B has a fullness to the low end that is indicative of ash." (This one from Spencer! is my personal favorite)​

"...the A's definitely sound different from the B's."

"Although It was harder for me to tell on the first 2 files. But when I listened to the second 2 files I felt like "B" sounded softer or more mid scooped/mellow"

"If you put these clips on a scope you'll see the differences in the frequency plots. That says to me wood makes a difference."​

And that's just after the first 3 pages. So people swore they could hear a noticeable difference in tone FROM THE EXACT SAME BASS. To me, this is more evidence that body wood has minimal impact on tone, and that tone is far more impacted by other factors, including our own heads.

“First of all (and speaking from a steel string guitar perspective), let’s discard the notion that some species of wood make good instruments and that others don’t. The concept of tonewood is a hoax. Of the few things that we can do to a guitar and still call it a guitar, changing the wood it is made of will have the least impact upon the quality of the sound that it produces. The tone of a guitar lies more in the hands of the builder than in the materials from which it is constructed.”​

That quote is from John Calkin (from the Guild of American Luthiers) in his article “The Heretic’s Guide to Alternative Lutherie Woods”.

It's a very educational read. Check it out: http://www.guitarnation.com/articles/calkin.htm

Excuse me if you've already addressed this, but what was 1-B? Maybe you could edit your reveal post, eh?

Here's what I said.

Well, I voted with the majority, but the difference between 2A and 2B was difficult to discern. I'm pretty sure about 1A and 1B (ash and alder), though.

Anyway, it was hardly a scientific test, since you introduced deception into the protocol. I kind of figured there was some nefarious BS going on when I saw the choices after the first two.

 

[WoodyG3]

Sorry to disappoint you, but that's exactly the test I'll be posting tomorrow night. Rosewood vs. Maple. Why? Because Maple/Rosewood and Maple/Maple account for about 80% of the necks on the market, I would guess.

And by the way, to my ears the fretboard wood has MUCH more impact on the tone than the body wood. But we'll see what the consensus is.

Okay, but if you try any of that tricky stuff this time we'll be watching a little closer.

I'm looking forward to the new test. This is fun. And, my wife thinks I'm crazy for spending time reading all this stuff. Ha. She doesn't know what she's missing.

 

[MrWalker]

Wow
Are we still debating whether the test was fair or not? Lol
Come on guys!

I posted this thread to a friend, and he asked what the consensus was, as he didn't have the time to read through. I responded "Consensus? On talkbass? Are you joking?"

The point to me is obvious. Dan set us up a little and we took the bait. He illustrated to us that wood snobbery between alder and ash doesn't really affect the tone as much as we - me included -likes to think. Lesson learned for me. I will maybe value other criteria than the ash/ alder body wood choice next time.
Does it prove something? No, not really. The test doesn't provide enough information to say that body wood doesn't matter. I can list twenty reasons why.

A Roscoe made of mahogany sounds completely different than a Pedulla made out of maple. This test sheds no light on what extent the body wood's impact on those differences.

Still, i think Dan illustrated how subtle one of the major fender issues can be. I was led on and i can laugh at it, see the point, smile at how i heard differences that have to have other cause, still have the opinion that wood matters, and be able to trust Dan to the degree of buying a bass from him.

And the man plays the bass very well, too!

Looking forward to the neck test! I will read a little more carefully then, too. Sneaky Dan won't get me twice!

 

[Bean639]

I have not listened to the clips yet. I have to get my headphones out. I'm looking forward to listening tho! Also thanks for the time you took to do this! Great Idea!

I have not read the entire thread so sorry if this has been mentioned already. From what I have read, it is very important to what the quality of the wood is. For example, maybe a crap piece of ash will sound very much like a crap piece of alder. Especially with active electronics! If I recall both basses were fender basses and I think we all know how consistent that company can be.

Im not trying to take sides on this post. I just want to point out some more (possible) variables.

All in all. Thanks again for taking the time to do this!

Trying this again.... Sorry to quote myself. I feel like this is a very important question that has gone unanswered. What about the quality of "said" wood????

 

[Joe_K]

I can't see how anyone could view these results of proof that people can successfully identify differenes in wood tone. A group of monkeys would be just as likely to guess correctly 14%.

Wow. Hold up a moment. Maybe 14% of monkeys would have chosen #3. But using that logic, wouldn't way more than 2% of monkeys choose #4? Wouldn't way fewer than 47% of monkeys choose #2?

I'm not saying your test wasn't interesting, and that deception isn't a valid technique, BUT, you need to apply it carefully and factor it in when analyzing the results. You did so much tedious work in constructing the physical conditions of the test, but clearly you need to leave the analysis of the results up to other people.

Like me. I'll do the tedious part for you here. Just remember, I didn't make this complex, you did.

Realize that people given multiple choice tend to choose only from answers that fit the preconditions stated in the test. So it shouldn't come as a shock that many people would rule-out options 3, 4 & 5. Despite the fact that people should have only used their ears, you cannot suddenly discount your preconditioning deception for analytical convenience.

I see two categories of answers that need to be looked at before looking at all the answers in total.

First category contains the only possible right answers given the preconditions:

#1: 1-A and 2-A are Alder, 1-B and 2-B are Ash.
#2: 1-A and 2-A are Ash, 1-B and 2-B are Alder.

Now analyze. Of these 2 answers, #2 is 75%, or mostly, correct. #1 is only 25% correct. Far more people in this grouping chose the mostly correct option. Approx. 75% of them. More right than wrong.

Now look at the remaining answers (the ones that don't fit the stated preconditions):

#3: I can hear a difference between the "1" recordings, but not the "2" recordings
#4: I can hear a difference between the "2" recordings, but not the "1" recordings
#5: I can't hear a difference between any of them!

#3 is 100% correct. #4 is 0% correct. #5 is 50% correct.

Now analyze: Only 5% of this grouping answered #4. The majority (55%) chose the answer that was evenly correct/incorrect. There was a good showing for the runner up at 40% for the answer that was totally correct. If you take away answer #5, then 98.2% chose the best answer. More right than wrong.. Adding in answer #5, 95% of the people in this group still avoided the most incorrect answer in the entire poll. More right than wrong.. In fact, the only way in my entire analysis to make the answer More wrong than right is to add #5 and #4 together here and compare it against #3. But since #5 is neither mostly right or mostly wrong, that is a stretch.

Now analyze all the results together. The 2 best answers were: #3, #2 and the 2 worst answers were #4, #1. In this grouping, 77.8% of respondents voted for the best answers. Many more people in the entire poll gravitated toward right or mostly right answers than wrong or mostly wrong. More right than wrong.. Even if you take answer #5, toss that into the mostly "wrong" pile as I did previously, the answers are still More right than wrong..

BTW, I don't really care very much about the body wood argument itself. I would never type this much on that debate alone ... but you drew me in because of poor analysis! Thanks.

Bottom line: The results seem to indicate that the change is both subtle AND discernable.

Ultimately, to those with excellent hearing, these sound files serve as a good demonstration of that, IMO. Everyone has to understand something important: Like eyes, ears are not all made equal. You are ALWAYS going to have some people who can't discern any difference and some that can. That is just the way it is. Polls aren't going to change that anymore than a poll could help me see better without glasses.

(*) I happened to choose the best answer (#3), but I almost chose the next right answer (#2) thanks to preconditioning. In the end I decided to base my answer solely on my ears even if it meant I was wrong. I literally had to say to myself in choosing #3, "This is apparently wrong, but it is what I hear". I didn't care about being right or wrong, just participating.

P.S.: I could think of better ways to write this test for more meaningful results and less complex analysis.

 

[Lowbrow]

And to think I play bass because I can't reason with this level of complexity.

 

[Joe_K]

And to think I play bass because I can't reason with this level of complexity.

That depends.