Can You Tell The Difference??? ASH vs. ALDER

[johnk_10]

Yes to the former, but a definite no to the latter. In fact, you don't actually have to just take the scientist's word for it. But you apparently _do_ have to take a tonewood advocate's word for it, as john_k has insisted over and over to me for example.


LS

when you take your car to a very experienced and qualified mechanic, do you to trust that he knows more about what makes your particular car work, the common issues/problems that your model might have, and knows exactly how to correct the fault? or do you ask him to prove that he knows what he's talking about?

 

[Fuzzbass]

The point is that experience alone means nothing when it comes to proof- it can only supply evidence and uphold a belief. As I've said, I believe that tonewoods make a difference in sound, but as I can't prove it, I'm certainly not going to suggest that others who do not hear it or think that they make no difference at all are either inexperienced or have bad ears. There are lots of guys out there who swear they hear a difference in tone between properly made speaker and line level cables, etc. based on their experience and their ears, when the reality is that any differences are inaudible to humans. People put far too much stock in their own experience, and I certainly could be one of those people, so I try to keep an open mind about it.

Beautifully said. I'm not going to re-post the Ethan Winer "Audio Myths" video yet again (if anyone's curious, look it up on YouTube), but he and his colleagues explain perfectly that we humans will hear what we expect to hear. If you see that a bass is ash, and believe that "ash sounds like X", then that bass will sound like X to you.

Again... Dan isn't saying there are NO tonal differences between wood species, but only that the difference is incredibly subtle, especially when compared to the tonal effect of pickups, strings, construction, etc. That is my experience as well.

Finally: I've owned basses (including boutiques) that were otherwise identical, and they sounded different. So, to say Wood A sounds like X and Wood B sounds like Y is misleading. IME, it's more accurate to say "Wood A can sound within the range of W thru Y, while Wood B can sound within the range of X thru Z."

 

[bass12]

I only listened to the first two clips and heard a significant difference between the two. Funnily enough though, I got the woods reversed and associated the fatness of 1A with alder. Shows how much I know about the difference between alder and ash! Great experiment - thanks for taking the time to do that, Dan.

 

[lomo]

when you take your car to a very experienced and qualified mechanic, do you to trust that he knows more about what makes your particular car work, the common issues/problems that your model might have, and knows exactly how to correct the fault? or do you ask him to prove that he knows what he's talking about?

There is a weight of objective experience that teaches you here. The last 10 times I brought my car to a mechanic, he fixed my car. Others I know have had the same experience. This is objective evidence. Please explain how this bears any relevance to the discussion of tonewoods and the requirement of evidence to demonstrate their effect.

 

[johnk_10]

There is a weight of objective experience that teaches you here. The last 10 times I brought my car to a mechanic, he fixed my car. Others I know have had the same experience. This is objective evidence. Please explain how this bears any relevance to the discussion of tonewoods and the requirement of evidence to demonstrate their effect.

you missed my point completely. but i expected that.
believe it or not, there are people out there that know more about some things than you do. (and more than i do).

 

[unclejane]

when you take your car to a very experienced and qualified mechanic, do you to trust that he knows more about what makes your particular car work, the common issues/problems that your model might have, and knows exactly how to correct the fault? or do you ask him to prove that he knows what he's talking about?

Now your questions are getting somewhere. Let's recast the script here a bit to get us moving towards the point:

When your car develops a problem do you take it to an experienced mechanic or a spiritual car healer? Can you tell me why you'd prefer one or the other to work on your car? What's the difference between the two? How do you know one is an "experienced mechanic" and the other likely is not?

LS

 

[Daede]

Some of you guys are really absurd. I don't know whether to call you stuffed-shirt swaggering peacock prudes or just plain old mean spirited jackasses.

First, the argument "He lied and it biased my answer":
But with your EXPERT EARS, you should have been able to HEAR that wasn't true (and 15 people's EXPERT ears COULD hear the difference). It sounds to me like you're butthurt that those ears you thought to be so expert fell short of what in YOUR minds should have been the simple task of differentiating one wood from another. Atop that, TWO of the possible answers you could choose from were "I can tell the difference between this set, but not the other set". To me, that was a DEAD give-away, and I started LOOKING for which set had the same bass in both samples.

Next, the argument "he did this to the signal so his comparison is invalid":
He did the exact same thing to the signal for each recording. Your argument is 100% invalid.

To the guy who said he'll be banned for trolling when all he did was post a somewhat unconventional test to help people realize that walking into a test situation with a preconceived notion will yield a preconceived result:
I seriously would hope you get banned long before he does.

To the guy who said he'd never buy a bass from Dan for misleading him on this test:
Go play trumpet. That's the most asinine reason I have ever heard not to patronize someone's business.


Dan,

I found this test and this thread truly entertaining AND enlightening. I had personally been under the notion that wood makes a tremendous difference in the overall tone and quality of a bass, and you have CLEARLY proven this is not the case.

I went into your experiment with the preconceived notion that A and B from each clip were from different woods. When I saw the options in the poll, I immediately started looking for differences between the A and B of each set, but ended up settling on choice #2 (A is ash, B is alder). When I read the post that laid them out, I literally said aloud "I stand corrected. I guess wood doesn't make as big a difference as people like to tell you" and it made me start thinking about building a basswood bass just for S&G.

Since then, I've read the article you linked to as well as the thread on "Oranges vs. Apples", and I LIKE THE WAY YOU THINK.

I just wanted you to know that sometime in the next year, I will probably be purchasing a bass from you, and I look forward to seeing more of your 'experiments' in the future.


To those of you hating on Dan and calling him names because he's blowing holes in theories that you hold sacred:
Grow up. Abe Lincoln said "It is a measure of a man who can admit when he is wrong".

 

[lomo]

you missed my point completely. but i expected that.
believe it or not, there are people out there that know more that you do. (and more than i do).

I did not miss the point at all. I realize there are many who know more about many things than I, but that has nothing to do with this discussion. What is at the core is how we know what we know, and the difference between subjective belief and objective evidence.

An example that may help: until the 1970s cardiac surgeons had been doing bypass grafts on patients who had narrowed coronary arteries and chest pain or heart attacks. It made sense. The experts believed it made sense. The patients believed they were being helped. Then someone realized we had no proof it was working, only subjective belief based on experience. A trial was done with a large number of patients and it revealed that only those who had greater than 50% narrowing of the largest coronary or multiple coronaries benefitted from surgery. The others who had surgery for lesser disease were more likely to die within 3 years than those treated with meds alone. The study was repeated and verified. What experts believe is only worth the paper it is printed on if there is objective proof. This way of thinking is what makes your car go and put a man on the moon. The school of -I believe it because I know- is responsible for other things. Draw your own conclusions.

 

[johnk_10]

Now your questions are getting somewhere. Let's recast the script here a bit to get us moving towards the point:

When your car develops a problem do you take it to an experienced mechanic or a spiritual car healer? Can you tell me why you'd prefer one or the other to work on your car? What's the difference between the two? How do you know one is an "experienced mechanic" and the other likely is not?

LS

easy. i refer to his track record of previous repairs, which is a recommendation from someone that has had their same model of car worked on by him.

 

[-=DanAtkinson=-]

Some of you guys are really absurd. I don't know whether to call you stuffed-shirt swaggering peacock prudes or just plain old mean spirited jackasses.

First, the argument "He lied and it biased my answer":
But with your EXPERT EARS, you should have been able to HEAR that wasn't true (and 15 people's EXPERT ears COULD hear the difference). It sounds to me like you're butthurt that those ears you thought to be so expert fell short of what in YOUR minds should have been the simple task of differentiating one wood from another. Atop that, TWO of the possible answers you could choose from were "I can tell the difference between this set, but not the other set". To me, that was a DEAD give-away, and I started LOOKING for which set had the same bass in both samples.

Next, the argument "he did this to the signal so his comparison is invalid":
He did the exact same thing to the signal for each recording. Your argument is 100% invalid.

To the guy who said he'll be banned for trolling when all he did was post a somewhat unconventional test to help people realize that walking into a test situation with a preconceived notion will yield a preconceived result:
I seriously would hope you get banned long before he does.

To the guy who said he'd never buy a bass from Dan for misleading him on this test:
Go play trumpet. That's the most asinine reason I have ever heard not to patronize someone's business.


Dan,

I found this test and this thread truly entertaining AND enlightening. I had personally been under the notion that wood makes a tremendous difference in the overall tone and quality of a bass, and you have CLEARLY proven this is not the case.

I went into your experiment with the preconceived notion that A and B from each clip were from different woods. When I saw the options in the poll, I immediately started looking for differences between the A and B of each set, but ended up settling on choice #2 (A is ash, B is alder). When I read the post that laid them out, I literally said aloud "I stand corrected. I guess wood doesn't make as big a difference as people like to tell you" and it made me start thinking about building a basswood bass just for S&G.

Since then, I've read the article you linked to as well as the thread on "Oranges vs. Apples", and I LIKE THE WAY YOU THINK.

I just wanted you to know that sometime in the next year, I will probably be purchasing a bass from you, and I look forward to seeing more of your 'experiments' in the future.

To those of you hating on Dan and calling him names because he's blowing holes in theories that you hold sacred:
Grow up. Abe Lincoln said "It is a measure of a man who can admit when he is wrong".

Best TB post of all time. Ever.

 

[-=DanAtkinson=-]

Beautifully said. I'm not going to re-post the Ethan Winer "Audio Myths" video yet again (if anyone's curious, look it up on YouTube), but he and his colleagues explain perfectly that we humans will hear what we expect to hear. If you see that a bass is ash, and believe that "ash sounds like X", then that bass will sound like X to you.

Amen, brother! But somehow I doubt the "wood matters" crew will seek out that video.

 

[ugly_bassplayer]

The audio myths video is really cool.

 

[MikeBass]

Amen, brother! But somehow I doubt the "wood matters" crew will seek out that video.

I think wood matters.
Ash/maple vs. alder rosewood for example is by general consensus, very different.
But it has been my experience with both combos, that doesn't hold true as a hard fast rule.
But it gives a "jumping off" point to start from.

Great test, thanks Dan!

I did a VERY similar test with a power cable in the old Low Down Sound (LDS) shop when they were open.
Like here, some could swear they could hear a difference in the cables.
It's a 50/50 guess at best. And then I did just what you did Dan. Didn't switch out when I told I was going to. and got 50/50 results again.

People do hear with their "eyes" lots of time.
myself admittedly included.

 

[johnk_10]

this is going around in circles, so i'm going to end my discussion of this topic by saying, believe whatever you want (i think that most people do anyway ).

my statements have not stemmed from ego or a 'know it all' perspective. if you talked with me in person, i think that you'd know that. i've just tried to explain the differences that i've experienced, as well as the artists that i've built instruments for.

i don't feel the need to change anyone's mind, or attempt to prove my observations on the matter, to sway anyone one way or the other. if you agree with me, great, if you don't, also great. really, it's not a big deal.

and while i appreciate Dan's efforts, i will contend that just one instrument of each type is not enough to make an accurate assessment of what effect the two different wood types have, especially in detecting a pattern of it.

 

[Daede]

and while i appreciate Dan's efforts, i will contend that just one instrument of each type is not enough to make an accurate assessment of what effect the two different wood types have, especially in detecting a pattern of it.

I would definitely agree with this, but I think the biggest point Dan was trying to make, here (and, Dan, please correct me if I'm wrong), was that when you walk into any situation with a preconceived notion of how things will likely work out, you tend to get what you were expecting.

For this very simple life lesson, I choose to commend Dan, rather than condemn him.

 

[baba]

We really need a butthurt emoticon on here.

 

[BadJazz]

I did a VERY similar test with a power cable in the old Low Down Sound (LDS) shop when they were open.
Like here, some could swear they could hear a difference in the cables.
It's a 50/50 guess at best. And then I did just what you did Dan. Didn't switch out when I told I was going to. and got 50/50 results again.

People do hear with their "eyes" lots of time.
myself admittedly included.

Wow, I've thought about that thread several times while reading (and face-palming during) this one.

The greatest TalkBass thread of all time!

http://www.talkbass.com/forum/showthread.php?t=620026

 

[honeyiscool]

I can't tell these apart at all. The fretboard one was easy, though.

 

[One Drop]

I left this thread a while back because none of my points were being addressed by Dan, the arguments were getting very circular, and I resented being put in a box with other so-called 'nay-sayers' just because I demand a certain burden of proof which this experiment could not ever deliver due to it's flawed methodology.

I just want to make a few points before disappearing again:

I have nothing against Dan and never did.
I respect his efforts at trying to solve an issue that is obviously of professional importance to him.
I am not in any 'camp', 'group' as much as some people would like; it makes it easier to attack an argument by labeling those that support it, but I prefer to address the issue itself.
Although I respect experience and the opinions of the experienced, I don't value it more highly than proof furnished by empirical evidence.
Furnishing this kind of proof of is difficult for reasons that are complicated but made clear by many posters in this thread, e.g the necessity of a double blind test, with a decent sized sample of subjects and clips up for comparison.
The above is not niggling but the basic minimum burden of proof needed to settle or at least point the way for further tests to settle this question, which is further complicated as framing the question is itself difficult, e.g. how much is enough to be discernible (our ears are less sensitive than measuring devices but are variable from person to person, as is their memory for tones, their past experience at discerning tonal differences, etc. etc.
Some people really need to inform themselves of basic scientific methodology and basic logical fallacies and how to properly frame an argument.
Some people need to stop imputing motives to others to explain their beliefs; I am probably one of these in this very thread. if so, Dan, I apologize for accusing you of being unable to keep an open mind or for having an agenda. More probably you are convinced your argument was in the main sound, though I and many others STRONGLY disagree.


As flawed as it was, the original experiment is quite consistent with phenomena many are familiar with through the excellent clip linked above about pre-conditioning and the necessity of proper scientific method in determining the validity of our impressions, AND the possibility that different woods have a direct and discernible effect on the final tone of a solid body bass, all else being equal, even exactly as this experiment was performed.

That's it! I'll be lurking for a while, as long as this stays on topic and doesn't get personal I find it fascinating. When it veers to the personal, not so much...

 

[unclejane]

easy. i refer to his track record of previous repairs, which is a recommendation from someone that has had their same model of car worked on by him.

Exactly - you look at the _results_ each of the mechanic produces; i.e. in the form of fixes he's made to your car and other cars. The one that produces the results (fixed car) gets your trust; the one that doesn't, doesn't.

Now let's take the final turn in the script to get right to the point:

Let's say you're shopping for a bass; you go to a luthier that tells you you should use a particular wood because it produces a particular type of tone.

Now, keep in mind the difference between our two mechanics above, in particular what makes the one trustworthy and the other not.

What would you expect from your luthier regarding his claim about wood vs. tone?

LS