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Carol Kaye Controversey Solved?

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#181
Originally posted by Craig Garfinkel


Really? Can you site where you've heard this? To the contrary, no one says James was ever in no condition to play a recording session. I think you're confusing him with Benny Benjamin, who was the only cat that is referred to as someone they just couldn't rely on any more.
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In fairness, I think this is what Josh is referring to, from the official SITSOM movie site:

After freelancing around Detroit in the mid-'60s, Bob joined Stevie Wonder's band in 1966 and eventually was brought into the studio in 1967. The overwhelming workload in the wake of Motown's phenomenal success combined with James Jamerson's increasing health problems necessitated bringing in a second bassist.

Though I'm not sure what health problems means.
 
#182
Originally posted by Craig Garfinkel Can you site where you've heard this? To the contrary, no one says James was ever in no condition to play a recording session.
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I'm with you, Craig.
Jamerson did run into a wall when he moved out to Cali...mainly 'cause he wouldn't compromise the sound he heard in his head(he liked playing his dead/flatwound strings; he wouldn't slap when it wasn't needed; etc).
 
#183
Originally posted by Josh Walsh
And finally; peace. I know it is difficult to debate one's hero(s). I don't mean to lessen the importance of what JJ did. In fact, knowing some of his problems makes me appreciate what he did even more. And I do believe that JJ recorded the basslines in question, irregardless of CK's claims...
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No problem, Josh. And as it turns out...let's see if I can make it through this...

I was wro

I was wron

um

er

NO! I JUST CAN"T SAY IT!!!! :hyper:

Oh alright...I was wrong .

Richard reminded me of what you were referring to...my bad :o
 
#184
Originally posted by Craig Garfinkel


Really? Can you site where you've heard this? To the contrary, no one says James was ever in no condition to play a recording session. I think you're confusing him with Benny Benjamin, who was the only cat that is referred to as someone they just couldn't rely on any more.

Jamerson was an alcoholic by any definition, but by all accounts a highly functioning one "in the day". He used to get drunk at live gigs. And that's the only time anyone talks about him being too drunk to play...sorta.

Again, remember the "What's Going On" tracking story.

Bob Babbitt was not hired as a "replacement" for Jamerson. Nobody was. There was just too much work for Jamerson to cover. And remember, Babbitt didn't arrive on the scene 'til the later years that Motown was still in Detroit. Also, Marvin Gaye insisted on having Jamerson on the road with him. Jamerson was so important to most producers at Motown, that they would postpone their sessions until Jamerson returned from the road.
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Although CK's claims are ridiculous, I've read a few things in interviews with various Funk Brothers, and Babbitt himself, about instances where JJ was too "messed up" to be counted on for a session and Bob was booked instead.

Babbitt himself, in an old "BassPlayer" interview, recounts how JJ had somewhat of a temper and didn't like it when this happened.

Babbitt shows up to one of these sessions, and theres JJ, sitting in the studio, supposedly not sober, posessing a small hand gun, and said "I'm doing the session today". Now, although he and JJ were friends, this made Babbitt very nervous as JJ had a reputation for being very unpredictable when not sober. To Babbitt's relief, after exchanging a few quiet words with him, JJ simply got up and left.
 
#185
For people who want to hear some more of Bob Babbitt's great work, check out 'Midnight Train To Georgia' Bonnie Raitt's 'Streetlife' album and Brad & Jim K's favorite 'Scorpio' by Dennis Coffey!.....thats the song they are talking about in the movie, that you HAD to know to gig in thoses days:bassist: Bob Babbit's playing has been great on everything I've heard.....funny they didn't bring up his wrestling days to make ends meet. SITSOM is definitly one of the best movies ever made about the music biz!!!!!
 
#188
Originally posted by Brad Johnson
That's my song, jerry;)
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...as I'm still workin' on it!

**EDIT**
Would some ding-dong please issue that particular Dennis Coffey album on cd?!
...Dusty Groove does(did) have a used vinyl copy going for about $30. That's steep, IMO.
 
#195
I wanted to say something about the Shadows of Motown DVD, but noticed the thread was locked so I thought I'd add it here...

I just watched it and I must say that it was amazing to see how much fun all the funk brothers had playing for the movie. It was great to see that they finally got to get some of the credit that was due to them. Regardless of all this controversy, (I think) we can agree that Jamerson deserves credit for being one of the original funk brothers and was a big inspiration for a lot of bass players. :)
 
#196
I'm also happy how well this movie is going over with the public in general......not just bassist.
Everybody that I've talked to who where non-musicians, just loved it!!!! I think thats one of the things that has the Carol Kaye army with their panties in a bunch;) This movie has become popular beyond my wildest dreams....and that is just so F$%king cool!!!
 
#197
When I was living in LA and woking sessions there back in the 70's, I know for a fact that they used Carol on Motown dates because I was taking lessons from her at the time. And my brother played guitar on a lot of those dates with her too.

She very well could have played on the titles of the tunes that she says she did.. it doesn't necessiarily mean that she played on the "hit" versions of the tune. Usually on Motown dates, players were just cutting tracks without knowing the artist' name. And, sometimes cut versions of the same tune in different keys for various artists.

In LA, Motown also used an excellent bass player named Bobby West a great deal, who could nail Jamerson's sound and style.

In addition, they used to call "backup" bass players on Motown sessions that Jamerson was booked on so they would have someone on hand in case Jamerson didn't show up, and a lot of the time he didn't show up.

Motown gave James every chance but he got so unreliable that they finally parted ways with him.

The word got out and producers and contractors wouldn't call him anymore .. one of the last non Motown dates he did was with Boz Skaggs on a track called "You make it so hard (to say no)". If you listen to the track, you can hear that James was not playing up to his old standard.
The time and the playing is really loose (in a bad way).

On the "Bernadette" issue, personally I'm mixed.
I do hear some things that are distinctly Carol Kaye licks that I'd never heard Jamerson play before or after that record was made.

The time is way on top of the beat (like Carol plays) which is too aggressive compared to Jamerson's more "laid back" pocket. And, yes Carol can play with her fingers too.

It doesn't matter to me who played on it.. its just another tune and in 50 years this issue won't matter to anyone.
 
#199
Here's a question - Where's Berry Gordy in all of this? Or how about some of the Motown "stars?"... It was nice to see Martha Reeves in the movie (she is in the book as well). But I guess I'm just a little disappointed that the man himself doesn't step up to the plate and put an end to this nonsense once and for all, for I'm sure he could.

Also, Motown's quick retreat from Detroit (the sign on the door, not even giving the musicians warning, etc.) always struck me as VERY odd (not that that has anything to do with this whole controversy).

For now, I think our most reliable evidence is the music itself - and a good pair of headphones.

P.S. Isn't it funny how Carol chooses to ignore the "unknown" masterpieces - "Don't Mess With Bill", "How Long Has That Evening Train Been Gone", "I'd Be A Fool Right Now", to name a few - and only tries to lay claim to the biggest hits? Just something to think about...
 
#200
Well this is a good question that has been asked before but I don't mind giving my observations.

The Book SITSOM has a foreword by none other than Berry Gordy himself.

Berry also did right by Jamerson and the rest of the Funks by allowing a large number of Jobete tunes (that they played on) to appear in both the book and the Movie (now DVD) SITSOM.

Does he have to stand up and enumerate who played on every song? I don't think so... But it is interesting that there is a 4 DVD coming out in September with many of the songs in question as tracks (ala Bernadette and Whats Going On). There is another record coming out with all vintage 1960's classic Motown hits featuring the Funk Brothers with no vocals on them according to Harry Wienger.

I would ask what support he has giving (As far as some book would be concerned I would appreciate a page number and paragraph to look at) to the notion that there was somebody playing other than Jamerson and the Funks. Earl Palmer's book did not support that idea.

I will soon have some other interesting documentation supporting Jamerson's role in the music in question but I expect it to be received with the same skepticizm as all the other evidence that it was Jamerson (I am not talking about people here being skeptics...). More Later



BL
 
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