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Carol Kaye Controversey Solved?

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#161
Originally posted by Josh Walsh
The honest truth is that we'll never know for sure, so we will believe what we feel is right.
:D
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Well, true enough. If we want to get all epistemological, we could say that we never know anything for sure. But sometimes at least we can get close enough to have something to go on with, so we don't have to endlessly debate every possibility. I mean, I don't know for sure that my mother is my mother, but I'm sure enough that debate or controversy is pointless.

I guess what raises my hackles a bit when I hear the "we'll never know" statement is that it implies that Jamerson's and Kaye's claims are somehow in balance, that they have something like equal validity. Like, is Kobe better than T-Mac? I know that's not your POV, but that's kinda been the gist of several posts I've seen here. And to me, to act as if the cases have any kind of equivalent strength, given the massively disproportionate evidence in favor of one side, does a disservice to JJ. It gives CK's claims IMO a spurious legitimacy, gives them more credit than they deserve. That's why I spend all this time arguing about it. I think we *do* know as much as we need to come to a conclusion, and we should give the credit to the person who deserves it.

I freely admit JJ has been a hero of mine ever since I knew who he was. I hate seeing his cred questioned. So yeah, I have a personal investment. But I'd like to think that I'm reasonably fair, and I'd like to think that if it were ever proved that CK did in fact do all that stuff, I'd give her some of the props I give JJ now.

Again, I don't mean to dump on you--you've just kinda been a catalyst for some thoughts on something important to me. peace.
 
#163
Originally posted by Craig Garfinkel
You just heard the Funk Brothers, after 40 YEARS, play all that sh*t live, and it sounds as fresh as if they just did the sessions yesterday. Even the tempos are friggin' exact. Take special note of how Pistol Allen and Uriel Jones play in unison , as they often did on the original sessions (sometimes 3 drummers!), and you cannot hear two drum parts if you close your eyes.

These cats' playing is so ridiculously awesome now, it's absolutely ludicrous for anyone to believe these guys were "tracked over" back in the day. :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
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Why wouldn't it sound fresh? They're seasoned studio musicians reading notes from a chart.
 
#164
I would like to refer everyone again to my first 3 posts in this thread, quotes from the good sir Alan "Dr.Licks" Slutsky. Slutsky has done more research, heard more Motown and music, than probably all of us combined, and he writes a very damning article.

In my humble opinion, it is impossible to believe that CK1 played the original basslines to the dozen or so Motown hits that she is laying claim to.

I can only hope that CK1 is reading this. We all know that Jamerson was the first great electric bassist, a true musician, a true bassist, not a converted guitarist reading charts and playing as if it were a guitar. He died broken hearted for not receiving the respect he was due, and now Carol shamelessly dances on his grave. Pathetic.
 
#165
I know this has been referred to before...but everyone needs to check out this page who has not:

http://www.bassland.net/jamerson.html

In particular, near the bottom of the page, click on the "NPR Interview w/the Funk Brothers". You'll need DSL or cable to get it (it's 39 minutes long!), but it is just great. Interview with Joe Hunter and Jack Ashford.

While I was listening, I was reminded of another situation at Motown that completely debunks the re-cutting of tracks on the west coast theory.

The Funk Brothers were all under exclusive contract to record with Motown and Motown only. Now this doesn't mean they stuck to that, and in fact they snuck around quite a bit and did sessions for other labels. The "suits" at Motown went so far as to have them followed and photographed going in and out of rival studios so they could levy fines against the Brothers for violating their contracts. Now why in the hell would they bother with that? Because the Funk Brothers were the Motown sound.
 
#166
"To: [email protected]

On Motown (from writer JS):

In the '60s, Motown recorded backing tracks in Detroit and L.A. (MANY
were done in L.A.), and vocal overdubs usually in Detroit, occasionally
in L.A. Over the years since, the myth has built up that everything (or
everything really good--that's another version of the myth) was done in
Detroit, for a variety of reasons.

Why do anything in L.A.? Various reasons, including the greatest
session musicians in the world who were then creating and recording the hits of the 60s, certainly a better pool than was available in Detroit, and also reportedly problems with the reliability of one or more top Detroit players, e.g. Benny Benjamin was a heroin addict, would show up really late, pawn other people's drums for heroin money, etc. etc.)"

I started getting these E-mails when I started Questioning Girlbassplayer/Carol Kaye in another bass group abouth the time the SITSOM came out. I didn't know L.A. was the center of the universe! I guess all those lame cats from N.Y. and the south like Jerry Jermmont/ Chuck Rainy/ Duck Dunn/ Davis Hood/ Tommy Cogbill etc. couldn't compete with the Brady Bunch gang! IMHO every one of those cats contributed more to the art of bassplaying than Carol ever did....pretty soon Carol is going to lay claim to Aretha's work!
 
#167
Originally posted by jerry
"To: [email protected]

On Motown (from writer JS):

In the '60s, Motown recorded backing tracks in Detroit and L.A. (MANY
were done in L.A.), and vocal overdubs usually in Detroit, occasionally
in L.A. Over the years since, the myth has built up that everything (or
everything really good--that's another version of the myth) was done in
Detroit, for a variety of reasons.

Why do anything in L.A.? Various reasons, including the greatest
session musicians in the world who were then creating and recording the hits of the 60s, certainly a better pool than was available in Detroit, and also reportedly problems with the reliability of one or more top Detroit players, e.g. Benny Benjamin was a heroin addict, would show up really late, pawn other people's drums for heroin money, etc. etc.)"

I started getting these E-mails when I started Questioning Girlbassplayer/Carol Kaye in another bass group abouth the time the SITSOM came out. I didn't know L.A. was the center of the universe! I guess all those lame cats from N.Y. and the south like Jerry Jermmont/ Chuck Rainy/ Duck Dunn/ Davis Hood/ Tommy Cogbill etc. couldn't compete with the Brady Bunch gang! IMHO every one of those cats contributed more to the art of bassplaying than Carol ever did....pretty soon Carol is going to lay claim to Aretha's work!
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Yeah...and I dig the "from writer JS" heading.

Yup, there it is. I'm convinced. Definitive proof. And from the esteemed writer "JS", who everyone knows is the foremost authority on anything and everything. Whoever he is. Or she is.
 
#168
Originally posted by Craig Garfinkel


Yeah...and I dig the "from writer JS" heading.

Yup, there it is. I'm convinced. Definitive proof. And from the esteemed writer "JS", who everyone knows is the foremost authority on anything and everything. Whoever he is. Or she is.
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Well, what were we all thinking? Writer JS explains it all (as usual in this area, without deigning to offer any specific evidence regarding any specific tracks). I recant and repent. jeez.
 
#174
Originally posted by Phil Smith
Brad,

I would say that Josh's point still holds since Bob Babbit's feel was close to Jamerson's to the point that some of the tunes that Bob played on are attributed to Jamerson. Moreover a very close approximation from an excellent sight reader and the rest of the arrangement will bring it in close enough for market purposes.
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While it may seem like a good point, especially to people sympathetic to CK's side, that dog still won't hunt from my POV.

1. Bob Babbitt and Carol Kaye have two completely different styles. I know you've brought up the Babbitt/ Jamerson thing before but IMO that's an apple and this is an orange;)

This leads me to ask my question again that I have yet to get anything close to a response to. If CK could indeed play that close to JJ's style, why did she apparently stop? Babbitt OTOH still plays like Babbitt. I think he takes any confusion over his playing and Jamerson's as an honest mistake. Could we please hear a Beach Boys or James Darren or Soupy Sales tune with a Jamerson-quality bassline?

2. As this is a bass board, filled with bassists, close enough for market purposes just doesn't cut it. This is not about whether or not the general public would recognize the bass work, we should know enough about our instruments to be able to discern a difference.

I've worked on projects with multiple bassists (not anywhere near the amount CK has) and I'd have no problem telling me from the other guys who took a shot at the same track. I've listened to the clips on her website and while the notes sound correct, something is different.

3. Another problem with this theory is that she's saying she not only worked from charts, she improvised a great deal of these cuts. Again, why would someone who could improvise like Jamerson just up and stop? Was it just a phase she was going through? Shouldn't she be able to do it again? Not just a note for note rendition of a Motown classic but take off within the structure of the song and still sound like Jamerson. Should be a piece of cake... shouldn't it?

I know a lot of people think they can play like Jamerson. A lot of people think they can play like Jaco, Rocco, Marcus ad infinitum. As a bass player, IME, some have been close but I'm still not handing out cigars.

My bet still stands;)
 
#175
Originally posted by Phil Smith


Why wouldn't it sound fresh? They're seasoned studio musicians reading notes from a chart.
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OTOH it could be even simpler... it's being played by guys who lived the music:D

For some reason people lose sight of the importance of feel, that almost indescribable part of music that eludes so many. It's what makes individuals sound like themselves. It's not about simply reading notation. It's also not necessarily about monster, shredding chops. I know guys that could blow through "Donna Lee" (usually with very little feeling) who'd hurt themselves trying to nail a Bootsy groove.

Paul Shaeffer's band on Letterman is comprised of seasoned studio musicians, including one of the best around, Will Lee on bass. I've heard them play tons of Motown while reading from charts.

Not even close to the Funk Brothers. Nope.
 
#176
Originally posted by SMASH
The more interesting aspect of the puzzle to me is how/why does/could Carol think she's on the hit versions.

Are any of the people who are sure she didn't play on the hit versions willing to call her a liar?

I am hoping she could have made some kind of honest mistake. But how? It's curious, to me at least.
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Personally, I'm reluctant to speculate about whether she's lying or just deluded. It's not very profitable IMO to speculate about someone's psychological state from a distance, and probably not fair to that person without knowing a lot more than I do. What I really care about is whether she's wrong about playing those tracks or not, and I'm sure she is wrong. If the facts say she's deliberately lying rather than honestly mistaken, then so be it, but I personally don't have any emotional investment in that idea. I'd be just as happy, or actually happier, if it were all some kind of mistake. As long as JJ gets the credit he should.

As for how she might be mistaken about playing on the tracks, see Slutsky's suggestion about the TCB special. Can't find the link, but it's somewhere on this thread, or maybe one of he other CK ones. Or BL's suggestion about *publishing demos* as opposed to *record demos*.
 
#177
What's also striking and prevalent throught the film is the universally high regard they all had for Jamerson. As great as all those cats were, if you asked them who was the most gifted of the Funk Brothers, to a man they'd say Jamerson.

When Joe Messina talks about the first time he played with Jamerson he's in total awe. He felt that the band was accompanying him , and that Jamerson's skills just astounded him. And this from a cat who had already played with Charlie Parker, Miles Davis, Dizzy et al as the house guitarist for the Soupy Sales Show. Dig the clip from the show of Messina blowing over changes...boppin' just like Parker :cool: .

That's why many of us get so rankled when it's suggested that Jamerson couldn't cut some of the parts so they had to be re-done by Carol Kaye.

Every talented bassist I have ever met has acknowledged the major influence Jamerson's playing has had on them. Conversely, I have never met a bassist who claims Carol Kaye as an influence, or that they wanted to play like she did. Never.

Again, I'm not discounting Carol's abilities, or trying to say she doesn't deserve credit and admiration for the numerous tracks she actually did play on. But comparing her influence on modern bass players to Jamerson's influence? Well...there is no comparison.
 
#178
Originally posted by Josh Walsh
It is a statement of fact that JJ obviously had problems that he was dealing with that could get in the way of his ability to perform. It was one of the primary reasons Bob Babbitt needed to be brought in (as well as the quantity of work).
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Really? Can you site where you've heard this? To the contrary, no one says James was ever in no condition to play a recording session. I think you're confusing him with Benny Benjamin, who was the only cat that is referred to as someone they just couldn't rely on any more.

Jamerson was an alcoholic by any definition, but by all accounts a highly functioning one "in the day". He used to get drunk at live gigs. And that's the only time anyone talks about him being too drunk to play...sorta.

Again, remember the "What's Going On" tracking story.

Bob Babbitt was not hired as a "replacement" for Jamerson. Nobody was. There was just too much work for Jamerson to cover. And remember, Babbitt didn't arrive on the scene 'til the later years that Motown was still in Detroit. Also, Marvin Gaye insisted on having Jamerson on the road with him. Jamerson was so important to most producers at Motown, that they would postpone their sessions until Jamerson returned from the road.
 
#179
Having read all this, I don't see how anyone can believe CK played those lines. I just don't see the evidence, whereas the evidence for JJ having played them is overwhelming!

As for Treena taking CK's side... Well, I could be completely wrong, but she's a female bass player in a very male-dominated field - as is CK, and I can imagine her wanting to support CK in her claims, and wanting to believe that a female bass player came up with, and played, those fantastic bass parts.

Of course, there's absolutely no reason that a female bass player couldn't come up with equally fantastic bass lines, and play them just as well. No reason at all.

But, JJ played the lines in question, not CK. The fact that he was a man and she's a woman is irrelevant.

Again, I could be wrong, but I can't help but think that it's no coincidence than Treena is a woman and is supporting CK.
 
#180
I am glad to see how the 2-3 (according to CK) people here (having grown to 200 posts on this thread alone and 3381 views) and elsewhere are rising to the ocassion of a very important musical history event that was Motown and Jamerson not to be glossed over by some interloper.

I am glad to see the level of thought rhat has gone into a huge amount of data that is the evidence regarding this issue.

It makes me proud to have stood up for Jamerson in the first place and confident that I did the right thing. Amongst the many things that I read from CK on her site is that I and maybe even you here at talkbass want "in on the history part of the music biz....at any cost," what "we" really want (what I really want) is future generations not to get a revised (by CK and friends) musical history and it is why I have tried to be dilligent in providing a balance to CK's headline/press grabbing. She says she now has to write a book addressing Motown. If she does this I believe she will fix her place in American Music history and it won't be the place she wants to be in...

As far as assesing someones motives for doing this or that? It is not my problem. I don't need to know why something is not factual to present the facts as I see them and unless you want to invite some sort of litigation by someone that has demonstrated a suit happy conduct in the past (and I ought to know), I would advise against becoming some kind of armchair physcologist. Anything you say with that regard might be injurious to innocent people and weaken the case for the legitimate issue, who played the music!

Anytime you take up the torch of righting a wrong large responsibities come with it. You have to endure name calling and people who claim they cannot see what is before their very eyes. The only way you can prevail is by sticking to the facts and not being taken off course by your emotions or the emotions of others.
 
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