Thanks Bob -
You're right, I forgot to mention Gordy's introduction to the book.
Love the pic!!!
You're right, I forgot to mention Gordy's introduction to the book.
Love the pic!!!
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Carol Kaye Controversey Solved?
- Thread starter Phil Smith
- Start date
- Status
- Aug 25, 2000
- 1,836
- 28
- 66
- Disclosures
- Endorsing Artist: Sadowsky Guitars
laklandplayer,
Thanks for your excellent post. For myself, it is the "Bernadette" issue, and especially the pre-1967 "hits versions" claims that have me perplexed.
And you're so right to point out Carol's playing way up on top of the beat...and that's what I just don't hear on the original "Bernadette", especially the soloed track used in SITSOM.
I'm curious now as to who you are. Who was your guitar-playing brother? Your currently a Lakland player who did sessions in the 70's, born in '55. You list David Hungate as an influence, but I might have guessed that's who you are?
Thanks for your excellent post. For myself, it is the "Bernadette" issue, and especially the pre-1967 "hits versions" claims that have me perplexed.
And you're so right to point out Carol's playing way up on top of the beat...and that's what I just don't hear on the original "Bernadette", especially the soloed track used in SITSOM.
I'm curious now as to who you are. Who was your guitar-playing brother? Your currently a Lakland player who did sessions in the 70's, born in '55. You list David Hungate as an influence, but I might have guessed that's who you are?
That sound that Bassland posted of Kaye's bassline is too buttery (pick!) to be on any of the Motown hits. If that's Kaye, then she definitely didn't play on those Motown songs in question, if any Motown at all.
It sounds like it's either with a pick or it played close to the bridge. Sounds good, but there is no warmness, like the Motown recordings. And Jamerson, from all accounts of people who saw him play, Never played with a pick or near the bridge.
Also, that sounds more like a 60s Jazz Bass as opposed to a PBass.
Carol can play. That sounds definitely like Brady Bunch. But it sure ain't Bernadete. Peace.
It sounds like it's either with a pick or it played close to the bridge. Sounds good, but there is no warmness, like the Motown recordings. And Jamerson, from all accounts of people who saw him play, Never played with a pick or near the bridge.
Also, that sounds more like a 60s Jazz Bass as opposed to a PBass.
Carol can play. That sounds definitely like Brady Bunch. But it sure ain't Bernadete. Peace.
Here is some other information from the web (links included) on this subject. If you feel like reading it off the actual site.
[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]
http://www.spectropop.com/archive/digest/m236.html
Spectropop Group Discussion Archives: Volume #1, Issue #0205
Subject: That Motown Thing
Now....about the Motown thing. Originally, I complained to the
Union in the late 80s about the fact that we get "no royalties",
as we did go "legal" with Motown about 1967 (when they announced
they had "moved to LA".
Along came the use of "My Girl", very popular in the last 10 yrs.
in movies, TV shows, etc. Bill Peterson, pres. of our Union, MADE
up a contract, relying on people's testimony that they did that
tune (which I always thought was a Detroit product). Some of our
LA horn men are listed on that contract.
Over the years, Russ Wapensky, writer of the contract credits
book, did find the "Get Ready" contract (we did do some "legal"
dates out here in the 60s), with my name on it playing bass and
of course the G.I.T. On Broadway Television special (with Diana
Ross and the Tempts) cut at NBC with Al Lapin as contractor is a
matter of record (think that was late 68), with my name not only
on the contract but trumpeter Ollie Mitchell even has that on his
movie camera (on super 8 film) and almost had his camera
conviscated when Diana Ross got angry (boy she had some energy
I'll tell you).
So NO, they did not play on the credits I (we) claim (and I
totally remember the music, the parts I made up some of the ideas
written in the 1st bar, etc., some of the incidents surrounding
the cutting of those dates).
It makes sense -- the LA studio musicians who were responsible
for the 60s greatest hits that have lasted this long, were NOT
hired to do demos and album fillers for Motown - I have 113 dates
logged in my log, plus my sound is distinctive altho' Armin
Steiner (who also verified that we cut a ton of Motown 60s hits
here in LA in a magazine interview) tried to add compression a
little to try to "match" Jamerson's sound (hear my soundbytes on
"Bernadette" and "I Was Made To Love Her", sounds like "fingers"
doesn't it).
Even Berry Gordy said it in his 1964 filmed interview, bragging
about all the "great tracks coming out of LA for Motown."
Well......I'd think people could put 2 and 2 together, when
people used the hit making factory studio musicians of LA -- it
was not for "demos". We heard "demos" cut in Detroit (but played
by Armin who told me about all the plane-flights back to Detroit),
played to give us a "feel" for the records which we cut out
here.
I spoke to Lester Sill about this about in 1991 or so, as he was
president of Jobete for Berry for many, many years. He said (and
I quote), "Carol, you all didn't cut 30-35% of Motown's 60s
original HIT tracks out here in the 60s, it was over 60% of all
of Motown's biggest hits and you played bass on most of them."
When I tried to counter with "Lester, I thought it was only 30%
to 1/3 of Motown", he got angry, and re-stated "60%!" Well...I
still don't know, don't think anyone will ever be able to prove
it.
There are some films made where we talk about Motown, and there
have been a few magazine articles in the past where, besides
Armin Steiner, Earl Palmer, Joe Sample, even Steve Douglas, etc.
talked about Motown.
We will never see a dime of that money, and I don't think that
Berry Gordy is interested in setting the record straight.
Motown was started by the 2nd wife of Berry Gordy, herself a
talented arranger/pianist/composer, who got the groups started in
Detroit, filed the corporation papers for Motown, it was all her
idea. But Berry got it away from her when they split up, she went
to NY, and the year? 1963, when we really got into gear out here
in LA. There's more but from what I know etc., that will be put
together very well in my book.
I also used to hear from Berry Gordy from time to time a "hello"
too through a mutual friend of Don Costa's brother who was
engineer for Berry for many many years (died about 1 year ago).
BTW, Bill Peterson played trumpet on some of those cash dates for
Motown, and we spoke about the "demo singers' mike not being
plugged in all the time" (indicating "tracks" for singing to be
later added on), he also worked the "later cash dates" where they
tried to use the 2 white girls (for the Supremes tracks) who
couldn't sing at all, they were terrible singers, nice girls but
couldn't sing.
We knew it was a all a sham, but who wouldn't jump at the chance.
Lew McCreary used to say "we were making history w/Motown, that's
why I did it", yes, our musicians are all angry about it. It's our
fault though that we let them get away with it for years (instead
of 3-4 months like we did with other "new" record companies for
whom we'd do a few "demos" and if they hit (which they usually
did), then we'd bring them into the Union by insisting they had
to have us "Union" on their recordings). God's truth.
I had one guy put his computer tracking sound gear on my
"Bernadette" bass line soundbyte on my website (I recut my
original bass part note for note in 1994, was able to re-create
the exact feel and notes I originally played on the 4 Tops
recording), thinking he's going to "catch me" as he was a
Jamerson fan.
He emailed me about it some months ago and was so apologetic, he
said "they match, the attack, the...." whatever he said,
something about the technical stuff -- he was flabbergasted. He
couldn't say enough beautiful words about how it was "me" on
Bernadette when all along, he thought it was Jamerson, etc.
So eventually they will be able to prove us. We know we did many
of the hit tracks, I still think it was about 35-40% though, but
some very important hits for Motown.
01/02/99 8:16 pm
[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]
http://www.spectropop.com/archive/digest/m236.html
Spectropop Group Discussion Archives: Volume #1, Issue #0205
Subject: That Motown Thing
Now....about the Motown thing. Originally, I complained to the
Union in the late 80s about the fact that we get "no royalties",
as we did go "legal" with Motown about 1967 (when they announced
they had "moved to LA".
Along came the use of "My Girl", very popular in the last 10 yrs.
in movies, TV shows, etc. Bill Peterson, pres. of our Union, MADE
up a contract, relying on people's testimony that they did that
tune (which I always thought was a Detroit product). Some of our
LA horn men are listed on that contract.
Over the years, Russ Wapensky, writer of the contract credits
book, did find the "Get Ready" contract (we did do some "legal"
dates out here in the 60s), with my name on it playing bass and
of course the G.I.T. On Broadway Television special (with Diana
Ross and the Tempts) cut at NBC with Al Lapin as contractor is a
matter of record (think that was late 68), with my name not only
on the contract but trumpeter Ollie Mitchell even has that on his
movie camera (on super 8 film) and almost had his camera
conviscated when Diana Ross got angry (boy she had some energy
I'll tell you).
So NO, they did not play on the credits I (we) claim (and I
totally remember the music, the parts I made up some of the ideas
written in the 1st bar, etc., some of the incidents surrounding
the cutting of those dates).
It makes sense -- the LA studio musicians who were responsible
for the 60s greatest hits that have lasted this long, were NOT
hired to do demos and album fillers for Motown - I have 113 dates
logged in my log, plus my sound is distinctive altho' Armin
Steiner (who also verified that we cut a ton of Motown 60s hits
here in LA in a magazine interview) tried to add compression a
little to try to "match" Jamerson's sound (hear my soundbytes on
"Bernadette" and "I Was Made To Love Her", sounds like "fingers"
doesn't it).
Even Berry Gordy said it in his 1964 filmed interview, bragging
about all the "great tracks coming out of LA for Motown."
Well......I'd think people could put 2 and 2 together, when
people used the hit making factory studio musicians of LA -- it
was not for "demos". We heard "demos" cut in Detroit (but played
by Armin who told me about all the plane-flights back to Detroit),
played to give us a "feel" for the records which we cut out
here.
I spoke to Lester Sill about this about in 1991 or so, as he was
president of Jobete for Berry for many, many years. He said (and
I quote), "Carol, you all didn't cut 30-35% of Motown's 60s
original HIT tracks out here in the 60s, it was over 60% of all
of Motown's biggest hits and you played bass on most of them."
When I tried to counter with "Lester, I thought it was only 30%
to 1/3 of Motown", he got angry, and re-stated "60%!" Well...I
still don't know, don't think anyone will ever be able to prove
it.
There are some films made where we talk about Motown, and there
have been a few magazine articles in the past where, besides
Armin Steiner, Earl Palmer, Joe Sample, even Steve Douglas, etc.
talked about Motown.
We will never see a dime of that money, and I don't think that
Berry Gordy is interested in setting the record straight.
Motown was started by the 2nd wife of Berry Gordy, herself a
talented arranger/pianist/composer, who got the groups started in
Detroit, filed the corporation papers for Motown, it was all her
idea. But Berry got it away from her when they split up, she went
to NY, and the year? 1963, when we really got into gear out here
in LA. There's more but from what I know etc., that will be put
together very well in my book.
I also used to hear from Berry Gordy from time to time a "hello"
too through a mutual friend of Don Costa's brother who was
engineer for Berry for many many years (died about 1 year ago).
BTW, Bill Peterson played trumpet on some of those cash dates for
Motown, and we spoke about the "demo singers' mike not being
plugged in all the time" (indicating "tracks" for singing to be
later added on), he also worked the "later cash dates" where they
tried to use the 2 white girls (for the Supremes tracks) who
couldn't sing at all, they were terrible singers, nice girls but
couldn't sing.
We knew it was a all a sham, but who wouldn't jump at the chance.
Lew McCreary used to say "we were making history w/Motown, that's
why I did it", yes, our musicians are all angry about it. It's our
fault though that we let them get away with it for years (instead
of 3-4 months like we did with other "new" record companies for
whom we'd do a few "demos" and if they hit (which they usually
did), then we'd bring them into the Union by insisting they had
to have us "Union" on their recordings). God's truth.
I had one guy put his computer tracking sound gear on my
"Bernadette" bass line soundbyte on my website (I recut my
original bass part note for note in 1994, was able to re-create
the exact feel and notes I originally played on the 4 Tops
recording), thinking he's going to "catch me" as he was a
Jamerson fan.
He emailed me about it some months ago and was so apologetic, he
said "they match, the attack, the...." whatever he said,
something about the technical stuff -- he was flabbergasted. He
couldn't say enough beautiful words about how it was "me" on
Bernadette when all along, he thought it was Jamerson, etc.
So eventually they will be able to prove us. We know we did many
of the hit tracks, I still think it was about 35-40% though, but
some very important hits for Motown.
01/02/99 8:16 pm
I wanted Talk Bass to get a feel for what is said on this subject that you might not have seen.
BL
Long PS: Someone asked a while back whom a writer named JS was. I said he was Joseph Scott. Here is something from Joseph Scott that is on the net (again Links included)
http://www.spectropop.com/archive/digest/m373.html
Subject: Non-Motown Carol Kaye recordings in her "Motown" style
Received: 10/21/99 2:41 am Oct 1999
>From: Joseph Scott
To: Spectropop List, spectxxxxxities.com
Hello everybody, I'm new to Spectropop and it's a pleasure
to be among like-minded folks. Regarding all those Motown
credits that Carol Kaye accurately claims, I'd like to
recommend a few non-Motown recordings on which she played
bass in that same funky style with improvisation that we
all know so well from the Motown hits (which of course was
a contrast to her usual approach to, e.g., the Beach
Boys--she was flexible). Most of these albums have been
issued on CD somewhere in the world; www.gemm.com is good
for checking availability.
Honeysuckle Breeze by Tom Scott and the California
Dreamers--check out "Baby, I Love You," for example
Wind, Sky, and Diamonds by Gabor Szabo and the California
Dreamers--check out "Twelve-Thirty"
Songs Of Innocence by David Axelrod (several great tracks
>from this soul LP are on the new Axelrod compilation CD
1968 To 1970 An Anthology)
Let It Be by Bud Shank and the Bob Alcivar Singers
Better Days by Joe Pass
There are some writers out there who like to attribute to
James Jamerson not only Jamerson's massive body of great
Motown work, but a number of Carol Kaye's finest Motown
performances as well. Part of the problem is that most
fans don't realize how many Motown instrumental backing
tracks (and, sometimes, vocal overdubs) were recorded in
Los Angeles. The section on Motown in Mark Cunningham's
superb book Good Vibrations: A History Of Record
Production, which is now in its second edition, does an
excellent job of getting at the truth.
Best to everyone,
Joseph Scott
================================================
Next topic: Why are some people mad at Allan Slutsky?
BL
Long PS: Someone asked a while back whom a writer named JS was. I said he was Joseph Scott. Here is something from Joseph Scott that is on the net (again Links included)
http://www.spectropop.com/archive/digest/m373.html
Subject: Non-Motown Carol Kaye recordings in her "Motown" style
Received: 10/21/99 2:41 am Oct 1999
>From: Joseph Scott
To: Spectropop List, spectxxxxxities.com
Hello everybody, I'm new to Spectropop and it's a pleasure
to be among like-minded folks. Regarding all those Motown
credits that Carol Kaye accurately claims, I'd like to
recommend a few non-Motown recordings on which she played
bass in that same funky style with improvisation that we
all know so well from the Motown hits (which of course was
a contrast to her usual approach to, e.g., the Beach
Boys--she was flexible). Most of these albums have been
issued on CD somewhere in the world; www.gemm.com is good
for checking availability.
Honeysuckle Breeze by Tom Scott and the California
Dreamers--check out "Baby, I Love You," for example
Wind, Sky, and Diamonds by Gabor Szabo and the California
Dreamers--check out "Twelve-Thirty"
Songs Of Innocence by David Axelrod (several great tracks
>from this soul LP are on the new Axelrod compilation CD
1968 To 1970 An Anthology)
Let It Be by Bud Shank and the Bob Alcivar Singers
Better Days by Joe Pass
There are some writers out there who like to attribute to
James Jamerson not only Jamerson's massive body of great
Motown work, but a number of Carol Kaye's finest Motown
performances as well. Part of the problem is that most
fans don't realize how many Motown instrumental backing
tracks (and, sometimes, vocal overdubs) were recorded in
Los Angeles. The section on Motown in Mark Cunningham's
superb book Good Vibrations: A History Of Record
Production, which is now in its second edition, does an
excellent job of getting at the truth.
Best to everyone,
Joseph Scott
================================================
Next topic: Why are some people mad at Allan Slutsky?
[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]
The first post, 5th paragraph
===============================================
[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]
the last heading "getting his dues", last 7 paragraphs.
BL
The first post, 5th paragraph
===============================================
[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]
the last heading "getting his dues", last 7 paragraphs.
BL
Carol Kaye is gonna wind up like Juan Marichal and Orlando Cepeda. Though highly qualifed, Her negative actions are gonna take her a looooooooooooong time to get her into the Hall of Fame.
The bat incident (Marichal) and drug arrest (Cepeda) kept them off the first ballot in Cooperstown, though they eventually got in later. Carol's not getting inducted in Cleveland any time soon. Peace.
The bat incident (Marichal) and drug arrest (Cepeda) kept them off the first ballot in Cooperstown, though they eventually got in later. Carol's not getting inducted in Cleveland any time soon. Peace.
Would I be right in thinking that "For Once In My Life" was Jamerson - and CK isn't claiming it was her?
How about "Signed, Sealed, Delivered"? Jamerson?
How about "Signed, Sealed, Delivered"? Jamerson?
Ok I've been having a listen to some of these songs. I'm not entirely sure if all of these are in question, but some definitely are...
Supremes - Reflections
If this isn't Jamerson, then I may as well forget everything I thought I knew about Jamerson's playing. To me, this has Jamerson written all over it.
Stevie Wonder - For Once In My Life
This sounds very Jamerson-esque too. The sound has more "edge" than Reflections, and purely by listening to it, one could possibly believe it was played with a pick. But the bass line itself, and the feel are very Jamerson to me.
Other observations - this is a fantastic song, fantastic arrangement, fantastic performance. And I wanna know *who* is responsible for that string chord - the last chord of the little "Someone who needs me" link section? It's Genius!
Four Tops - Bernadette
Sounds very much like Jamerson too to me. Very much has the style and sound I associate with him - but again, the tone has a little more edge, like For Once In My Life. Which could possibly give a little credence to the idea that it was played with a pick. *But*, the playing on this is so much the style I associate with Jamerson - again, if this ain't him, then I may as well forget all I thought I knew about him.
Four Tops - Can't Help Myself
Listening to this, I wouldn't be convinced either way, I reckon. The bass line is very simple, unlike the last three I mentioned. Again, the tone has more bite, and not the really blunt edge that the Reflections bass line has. This doesn't really have so much of the signature Jamerson feel that the previous three tunes had.
Stevie Wonder - I Was Made To Love Her
Again, a very Jamerson line. And this don't sound like pick work to me. Has a very Jamerson feel. Though, If I didn't know better, I'd say this is impossible to play with one finger
Observation - another fantastic song
Supremes - You Can't Hurry Love
Trying to listen objectively, I'd say it's difficult to tell. To me, it's not screamingly Jamerson in the way some of the others are. A little like I Can't Help Myself.
Four Tops - Reach Out I'll Be There
Sounds rather Jamerson-like. To me, not as blatantly Jamerson as Reflections or IWMTLH - but still sounds a lot like Jamerson.
I don't know if all of those songs were in question (is For Once In My Life in question?) - but I'm not at all convinced that CK played any of them. I've not heard much of her playing (well, not consciously - I've probably heard loads without realising it), but I'm not at all convinced that she played this stuff. Lines such as Reflections, Bernadette, I Was Made To Love Her, and For Once In My Life contain so many nuances/characteristics that I associate with Jamerson. Just little things about his phrasing, and feel. They may be partly due to the fact that he played with just one finger.
I don't recall hearing these on any other non-Motown records. I don't associate this playing style, with all its (his) nuances, with anything other than those old Motown records.
If CK played those parts - why have I not heard anything else like it, given the sheer volume of hit records she played on?
Doesn't make sense to me...
Supremes - Reflections
If this isn't Jamerson, then I may as well forget everything I thought I knew about Jamerson's playing. To me, this has Jamerson written all over it.
Stevie Wonder - For Once In My Life
This sounds very Jamerson-esque too. The sound has more "edge" than Reflections, and purely by listening to it, one could possibly believe it was played with a pick. But the bass line itself, and the feel are very Jamerson to me.
Other observations - this is a fantastic song, fantastic arrangement, fantastic performance. And I wanna know *who* is responsible for that string chord - the last chord of the little "Someone who needs me" link section? It's Genius!
Four Tops - Bernadette
Sounds very much like Jamerson too to me. Very much has the style and sound I associate with him - but again, the tone has a little more edge, like For Once In My Life. Which could possibly give a little credence to the idea that it was played with a pick. *But*, the playing on this is so much the style I associate with Jamerson - again, if this ain't him, then I may as well forget all I thought I knew about him.
Four Tops - Can't Help Myself
Listening to this, I wouldn't be convinced either way, I reckon. The bass line is very simple, unlike the last three I mentioned. Again, the tone has more bite, and not the really blunt edge that the Reflections bass line has. This doesn't really have so much of the signature Jamerson feel that the previous three tunes had.
Stevie Wonder - I Was Made To Love Her
Again, a very Jamerson line. And this don't sound like pick work to me. Has a very Jamerson feel. Though, If I didn't know better, I'd say this is impossible to play with one finger
Observation - another fantastic song
Supremes - You Can't Hurry Love
Trying to listen objectively, I'd say it's difficult to tell. To me, it's not screamingly Jamerson in the way some of the others are. A little like I Can't Help Myself.
Four Tops - Reach Out I'll Be There
Sounds rather Jamerson-like. To me, not as blatantly Jamerson as Reflections or IWMTLH - but still sounds a lot like Jamerson.
I don't know if all of those songs were in question (is For Once In My Life in question?) - but I'm not at all convinced that CK played any of them. I've not heard much of her playing (well, not consciously - I've probably heard loads without realising it), but I'm not at all convinced that she played this stuff. Lines such as Reflections, Bernadette, I Was Made To Love Her, and For Once In My Life contain so many nuances/characteristics that I associate with Jamerson. Just little things about his phrasing, and feel. They may be partly due to the fact that he played with just one finger.
I don't recall hearing these on any other non-Motown records. I don't associate this playing style, with all its (his) nuances, with anything other than those old Motown records.
If CK played those parts - why have I not heard anything else like it, given the sheer volume of hit records she played on?
Doesn't make sense to me...
- May 30, 2000
- 4,707
- 257
- Disclosures
- Creator of: iGigBook Sheet Music Manager
Okay here you're saying you haven't heard much of her playing, well at least not consciously.
Maybe it doesn't make sense to you because you haven't heard much of her playing, well, at least not consciously.
I took a few months worth of lessons from Carol
Kaye in the late 70's. Funny thing, she couldn't
remember my name 10 minutes after I had introduced myself. I must have corrected her
10 times on what my name was and it was just a
common American name, yet she continued to get
it wrong, week after week. I finally gave up and
let her call me whatever it was that was sticking
in her head. How she can remember things in such
great detail from 35 or more years ago is amazing
to me. I had a bad experience with Carol, I didn't
learn much from her, no matter how hard I tried. It seemed to me she was locked in some kind of time warp from the 50's or 60's; she was utterly oblivious to the music and the players that
were happening at the time, she seemed so outdated
and we're talking almost 25 years ago. When her
website went on line, I was a regular poster until
I disagreed with her over something trivial, I can't even remember what it was; she came off at
me in a mean and personal attack sort of way, all but calling me stupid in front of everyone to see;
I was hurt and saddened, especially since I was
a student and customer of hers and did have a pretty fair amount of respect for her accomplishments and as a musician. Needless to say, I lost all respect for Carol, and this ongoing crusade of hers to claim to have played on tracks that were clearly cut by J.J. only validates that. The saddest thing in life is
to find out that someone you had great respect for
can be so selfish and cruel, despite their accomplishments. I'm sure Carol has many redeeming qualities to the people that worked with her or know her well, but humility isn't one of them.
Kaye in the late 70's. Funny thing, she couldn't
remember my name 10 minutes after I had introduced myself. I must have corrected her
10 times on what my name was and it was just a
common American name, yet she continued to get
it wrong, week after week. I finally gave up and
let her call me whatever it was that was sticking
in her head. How she can remember things in such
great detail from 35 or more years ago is amazing
to me. I had a bad experience with Carol, I didn't
learn much from her, no matter how hard I tried. It seemed to me she was locked in some kind of time warp from the 50's or 60's; she was utterly oblivious to the music and the players that
were happening at the time, she seemed so outdated
and we're talking almost 25 years ago. When her
website went on line, I was a regular poster until
I disagreed with her over something trivial, I can't even remember what it was; she came off at
me in a mean and personal attack sort of way, all but calling me stupid in front of everyone to see;
I was hurt and saddened, especially since I was
a student and customer of hers and did have a pretty fair amount of respect for her accomplishments and as a musician. Needless to say, I lost all respect for Carol, and this ongoing crusade of hers to claim to have played on tracks that were clearly cut by J.J. only validates that. The saddest thing in life is
to find out that someone you had great respect for
can be so selfish and cruel, despite their accomplishments. I'm sure Carol has many redeeming qualities to the people that worked with her or know her well, but humility isn't one of them.
- May 30, 2000
- 4,707
- 257
- Disclosures
- Creator of: iGigBook Sheet Music Manager
slugworth, I'm sorry that your lessons with Carol didn't go well, but I gotta say, just looking at the information on her website i.e. her tips, it's hard to imagine anyone not coming away with some good information that's useful. The chord stuff that she talks about is right on the money so is the thumb pivot and her tips about sight reading as well. I'm not saying she's the sole source of this information, I am saying that the information that she provides, I feel, is useful. The other thing that I'm a firm believer in is that every teacher has something to offer, the trick as student is to put yourself in a place where you can absorb the information despite at times how it's being delivered.
Proper technique and musical theory are things
that are available from any competent teacher
at half the price that Carol was charging at the
time, and BTW, I, and most contemporary bassists
today use ALL four fingers of the left hand, so
I'm not sure of her technique; that's string bass
technique from Simandl or something, nobody uses
that method much anymore. Funny, a few months
after I quit taking lessons from Carol, I got a new teacher; a local working bassist from the
local music store/community college; he opened
my ears and eyes to bands and players in several
different genres of music, got my Bass Clef reading and chordal theory up to speed, and
helped me develop my ear in ways that put me
on a light-speed learning curve, plus he never
became impatient or bagged on my choice of instrument, strings, or musical tastes. The
guy was a superb teacher and mentor, I owe that
cat a lot, especially since I make a substantial
portion of my income from playing bass.
that are available from any competent teacher
at half the price that Carol was charging at the
time, and BTW, I, and most contemporary bassists
today use ALL four fingers of the left hand, so
I'm not sure of her technique; that's string bass
technique from Simandl or something, nobody uses
that method much anymore. Funny, a few months
after I quit taking lessons from Carol, I got a new teacher; a local working bassist from the
local music store/community college; he opened
my ears and eyes to bands and players in several
different genres of music, got my Bass Clef reading and chordal theory up to speed, and
helped me develop my ear in ways that put me
on a light-speed learning curve, plus he never
became impatient or bagged on my choice of instrument, strings, or musical tastes. The
guy was a superb teacher and mentor, I owe that
cat a lot, especially since I make a substantial
portion of my income from playing bass.
And by the way Phil, you don't need to apologize
for Carol, she can do that herself. She's got
a lot of it to do, and unfortunately, I'm WAY
down on the list. The stuff on her website is
free for people to take and do with as they wish;
It's not worth paying for as I unfortunately did,
there are much better people and places to learn
from these days like Bunny Brunel, Jeff Berlin's
Players School, and Vic's bass camp. Carol should
donate her basses to the Smithsonian and retire
to the old folks' home for obsolete musicians.
for Carol, she can do that herself. She's got
a lot of it to do, and unfortunately, I'm WAY
down on the list. The stuff on her website is
free for people to take and do with as they wish;
It's not worth paying for as I unfortunately did,
there are much better people and places to learn
from these days like Bunny Brunel, Jeff Berlin's
Players School, and Vic's bass camp. Carol should
donate her basses to the Smithsonian and retire
to the old folks' home for obsolete musicians.
- May 30, 2000
- 4,707
- 257
- Disclosures
- Creator of: iGigBook Sheet Music Manager
I've taken the liberty of pulling the following quotes from the two moderators of this forum that are contained in the sticky thread entitled: A lesson in respect
Now the question I ask is this: "Is it okay to portray Carol Kaye in the way that she's been in this thread and in other threads? Is it okay to portray her as one of the sea gulls in "Finding Nemo"? Of course only those that have seen the movie will get point.
Now the question I ask is this: "Is it okay to portray Carol Kaye in the way that she's been in this thread and in other threads? Is it okay to portray her as one of the sea gulls in "Finding Nemo"? Of course only those that have seen the movie will get point.
Someone did that? Thats actually kind of funny.
I think most people here have given CK credit where credit is definately due, with comments like "She's obviously a phenomenal player".
Where she gets into trouble is with some of the seemingly outrageous and unsubstantiated comments she makes. Not just the JJ stuff but some really strange things about Fender basses that any pro would easily find false, if not outright goofy.
If political cartoonists can humorously roast politicians, celebrities, and world leaders when they supposedly do or say rather dubious things, I don't see where CK should be protected from same.
I don't think what has taken place here can be considered "bashing". Just rather humorous takes on some rather humorous claims.
PS. I don't consider posting (lots) of material that seems to refute CK's claims by (lots) of people who were there, as "bashing" either.
Respect is something that is earned, and not easily. Respect can take years to earn, but can
be lost in a moment. People that beg for respect
are usually not deserving of it. When people
claim to be things they're not, done things they
never did, been places they've never been, earning
respect, or earning it back, becomes the hardest
thing in the world. Nobody loves an elitist.
be lost in a moment. People that beg for respect
are usually not deserving of it. When people
claim to be things they're not, done things they
never did, been places they've never been, earning
respect, or earning it back, becomes the hardest
thing in the world. Nobody loves an elitist.
- Status
