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Carol Kaye Controversey Solved?
- Thread starter Phil Smith
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I just listened to the original, to compare with the clip.
The feel ain't the same, I reckon. Neither is the sound.
To me, the original just sounds... I dunno... funkier? The feel is just *better*, for want of a better word.
Methinks it was Jamerson.
The feel ain't the same, I reckon. Neither is the sound.
To me, the original just sounds... I dunno... funkier? The feel is just *better*, for want of a better word.
Methinks it was Jamerson.
Originally posted by Brad Johnson
Unless of course this is the bass track from the original recording
I'm pretty sure it ain't.
For one, the original is slower
And the bass sound just isn't the same.
Originally posted by Brad Johnson
That would go more to the question: "Can" she play the line, not "did" she? Unless of course this is the bass track from the original recording
...It's like whenever I've heard people, including myself, try to nail some of the stuff Anthony Jackson plays, or Rocco for that matter. The notes may be correct but the feel is off just enough to make me feel like I'm not listening to the originator.
If that makes sense.
Makes absolute perfect sense.
...to me.
Oh yeah, on top of "being able to cop/play something", there's "the being able to come up with it", too!
- May 30, 2000
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Originally posted by Brad Johnson
That would go more to the question: "Can" she play the line, not "did" she? Unless of course this is the bass track from the original recording
I wouldn't bet my life one way or another...there's just something about this recording that doesn't ring true vs. the full version I just listened to. Not sure how to describe it, there just seems that some of the "bounce" of the original line is missing, while the notes may indeed be the same. It's like whenever I've heard people, including myself, try to nail some of the stuff Anthony Jackson plays, or Rocco for that matter. The notes may be correct but the feel is off just enough to make me feel like I'm not listening to the originator.
If that makes sense.
Well, looking at the lack of records and clearly instances of more than one person playing a track and credit assigned to one person, when in fact another played on the record, makes it a difficult call for me to make. I don't really know, I haven't seen any information that's compelling and the Babbit article, for me, further muddies the waters.
The sheer amount of work she has done makes it kind of odd that she's just making this stuff up with wav files to boot. That just doesn't make sense to me, especially in light of the fact that the records don't exist and assumptions were made on who played on what and the assumptions were wrong on more than one occassion.
- May 30, 2000
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Originally posted by moley
I'm pretty sure it ain't.
For one, the original is slower
Well it is mixed down and EQ'd, the odds are the bass sound is not going to be the same. I'm not saying that it is the same, but I am saying you can't determine anything about the sound of the stand alone bass versus that of a mixed one.
That's why I'm saying I wouldn't bet my life on it. Maybe a bag of donuts...
BTW no offense but wav files don't really prove much. I've heard quite a few attempts at this very line by several people on the internet. Copped them right of the SITSOM project
I really can't get too workewd about this, I wasn't there and I don't know with any certainty one way or another.
- May 30, 2000
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Originally posted by Brad Johnson
BTW no offense but wav files don't really prove much. I've heard quite a few attempts at this very line by several people on the internet. Copped them right of the SITSOM project
No offense taken, I'm not saying that I played on those records.
Yeah to an extent - but I don't think compression really accounts for the difference between these two. That is, the difference in attack & sustain doesn't, to me, sound like what could be produced by compression.
But I could be wrong.
How 'bout Holland-Dozier-Holland's comments? Is their recollection any less valid than Babbitt's?
(See Jazzbo's earlier long-winded post)
Big ASSumption here on my part(extrapolating from the available "records"/data/evidence)-
If given the rare opportunity...
Who did these big-name Motown acts want playing bass in their road band? It wasn't Kaye, right?
I already have my mind made up on this...so I'm done. The answer for me lies with my ears-
I just heard Stevie's version of "I Was Made To Love Her" on the morning drive...IMHO, that's JJ, though I have no doubt Kaye probably played the same lines on Perry Como's version of this Motown tune.
Well, you know, you don't have to have absolute certainty to have an intelligent opinion--as long as you remember that it's an opinion, and remain open to correction if new info comes along.
For me, nothing that has been said by Carol Kaye, or on her behalf, is remotely as convincing as the support given to the view that Jamerson was the one who did the versions of those songs that we know and love. Especially the support given by people who were in the studio with Jamerson every day. It's quite possible Kaye played on *some* version of most or even all of those songs--I wouldn't doubt that a bit--but I just don't see much reason to believe she played on *those* versions.
But Brad Johnson could be wrong, of course.
For me, nothing that has been said by Carol Kaye, or on her behalf, is remotely as convincing as the support given to the view that Jamerson was the one who did the versions of those songs that we know and love. Especially the support given by people who were in the studio with Jamerson every day. It's quite possible Kaye played on *some* version of most or even all of those songs--I wouldn't doubt that a bit--but I just don't see much reason to believe she played on *those* versions.
But Brad Johnson could be wrong, of course.
This is an excerpt from the second of my earlier long winded posts. Although I believe much of Slutsky's argument is very, very strong, this snippet appears quite damning.
Originally posted by JimK
I already have my mind made up on this...so I'm done. The answer for me lies with my ears-
I just heard Stevie's version of "I Was Made To Love Her" on the morning drive...IMHO, that's JJ, though I have no doubt Kaye probably played the same lines on Perry Como's version of this Motown tune.
I tend to agree that it's not hard - they clearly have very different styles and feels and I think anybody who has been playing bass for a while could tell them apart. Well - anyone who has been playing bass for about 20 years or so...
I am puzzled that this comes up so frequently on TB - or why it is even still an issue? Is there some law suit or something riding on it currently?
Make no mistake...I feel Jamerson played on the records, based simply on the sound of the bass on those tracks--obviously done by a finger-player using dead strings. Plus, while I can see a lot of people not wanting to defame a dead icon, I'm reasonably convinced that Holland, Dozier, Robinson and the rest are being truthful.
But Babbitt raises some interesting issues.
Plus, I think the only reason this debate has any legs at all (as opposed to, say, Sun Ra claiming he was from Saturn) is, if you listen to the style of playing, tracks like "Bernadette" and "I Was Made To Love Her" represent a quantum leap over earlier Motown classics like "It's The Same Old Song" or "My Girl."
The earlier tracks--clearly Jameson's work--are simple and funky, and usually involve the repetition of phrases. "Same Old Song," for example, is basically the same pattern repeated over and over. I am not suggesting it was anything less than brilliant. Only Jameson was coming up with these phrases at the time. But it is simple, direct, and to the point.
Suddenly, without any real sign of evolution, Jameson starts "soloing" through songs. "Bernadette," ""I Was Made To Love Her," and many others from the period make no attempt to provide catchy riffs to hold the bottom; rather, they dynamically propel the song along.
This drastic change is style could lend credence to Kaye's claim (aliteration is alluring, isn't it) that she played on demos that were later re-cut. Jameson, being a tremendous sight and ear player, could have easily copied the lines and added his own personal touch.
Likely? Maybe not. But the difference in Jameson's style between the older and later Motown stuff was like Neaderthal Man being replaced by Cro-Magnon Man--the gradual evolution seen in the line from Java Man to Peking Man to Neaderthal is suddenly obliterated, and we have homo sapiens. To my ear, the difference in bass styles presents a similar jump. Jamerson probably played the lines...but who taught him?
On the other hand, Kaye claims to have played bass on the Doors' "Light My Fire," which has no bass at all (only foot pedals and/or a special bass keyboard), so maybe she is just full of dung.
But Babbitt raises some interesting issues.
Plus, I think the only reason this debate has any legs at all (as opposed to, say, Sun Ra claiming he was from Saturn) is, if you listen to the style of playing, tracks like "Bernadette" and "I Was Made To Love Her" represent a quantum leap over earlier Motown classics like "It's The Same Old Song" or "My Girl."
The earlier tracks--clearly Jameson's work--are simple and funky, and usually involve the repetition of phrases. "Same Old Song," for example, is basically the same pattern repeated over and over. I am not suggesting it was anything less than brilliant. Only Jameson was coming up with these phrases at the time. But it is simple, direct, and to the point.
Suddenly, without any real sign of evolution, Jameson starts "soloing" through songs. "Bernadette," ""I Was Made To Love Her," and many others from the period make no attempt to provide catchy riffs to hold the bottom; rather, they dynamically propel the song along.
This drastic change is style could lend credence to Kaye's claim (aliteration is alluring, isn't it
) that she played on demos that were later re-cut. Jameson, being a tremendous sight and ear player, could have easily copied the lines and added his own personal touch.Likely? Maybe not. But the difference in Jameson's style between the older and later Motown stuff was like Neaderthal Man being replaced by Cro-Magnon Man--the gradual evolution seen in the line from Java Man to Peking Man to Neaderthal is suddenly obliterated, and we have homo sapiens. To my ear, the difference in bass styles presents a similar jump. Jamerson probably played the lines...but who taught him?
On the other hand, Kaye claims to have played bass on the Doors' "Light My Fire," which has no bass at all (only foot pedals and/or a special bass keyboard), so maybe she is just full of dung.
Originally posted by Steve Holroyd
Make no mistake...I feel Jamerson played on the records, based simply on the sound of the bass on those tracks--obviously done by a finger-player using dead strings. Plus, while I can see a lot of people not wanting to defame a dead icon, I'm reasonably convinced that Holland, Dozier, Robinson and the rest are being truthful.
But Babbitt raises some interesting issues.
Plus, I think the only reason this debate has any legs at all (as opposed to, say, Sun Ra claiming he was from Saturn) is, if you listen to the style of playing, tracks like "Bernadette" and "I Was Made To Love Her" represent a quantum leap over earlier Motown classics like "It's The Same Old Song" or "My Girl."
That's an interesting premise.
The earlier tracks--clearly Jameson's work--are simple and funky, and usually involve the repetition of phrases. "Same Old Song," for example, is basically the same pattern repeated over and over. I am not suggesting it was anything less than brilliant. Only Jameson was coming up with these phrases at the time. But it is simple, direct, and to the point.
I don't consider that song to be all that brilliant from a bass POV. It's a line that sounds like it was written and it's played in unison by various instruments throughtout the song. Not really sure if it's a song where stretching out would've been appropriate.
"My Girl" is a simple song based a simple but catchy two note bassline.
Suddenly, without any real sign of evolution, Jameson starts "soloing" through songs. "Bernadette," ""I Was Made To Love Her," and many others from the period make no attempt to provide catchy riffs to hold the bottom; rather, they dynamically propel the song along.
While I guess you could point at the bass chair, I'd think the producer and arranger may have had something to do with this. Imagine either song with a static line that barely moved off the root-five.
If I had to guess I would think that there was room for the type of playing that happened in those songs and that's exactly what happened.
I would think this had more to do with the "music" changing (it obviously did over the years).
This drastic change is style could lend credence to Kaye's claim (aliteration is alluring, isn't it
So is the idea that James might've gotten his fills from Carol?
Likely? Maybe not. But the difference in Jameson's style between the older and later Motown stuff was like Neaderthal Man being replaced by Cro-Magnon Man--the gradual evolution seen in the line from Java Man to Peking Man to Neaderthal is suddenly obliterated, and we have homo sapiens. To my ear, the difference in bass styles presents a similar jump. Jamerson probably played the lines...but who taught him?
If that's the case why wouldn't that be Carol's claim as opposed to listening to the tracks and saying they were hers?
I don't recall any time when Jamerson's playing went from caveman to present day man. In the 60's playing got busier and more free... think he (or Gordy or the writers, producers, arrangers and musicians) was immune to that?
On the other hand, Kaye claims to have played bass on the Doors' "Light My Fire," which has no bass at all (only foot pedals and/or a special bass keyboard), so maybe she is just full of dung.
If that's what she's saying and it's not true it doesn't help her case.
Agreed... that's "feel". It's the thing that makes one player play the same line, almost imperceptibly just ahead or behind the beat. Or make a minute change in playing a line.
Check out Pino with D'Angelo. Most bassists don't have the patience to wait that long to play the next note
Nora Jones' singing is another good example.
Originally posted by Brad Johnson
Check out Pino with D'Angelo. Most bassists don't have the patience to wait that long to play the next note
Nora Jones' singing is another good example.
I agree totally.........Pino's work with D'angelo is a great recent example of the art of playing for the song!!.........and it shows the growth in Pino's playing.........less is more
I also agree with Norah Jones, she has proven that given the chance people will respond to real music played by real musicians with real soul
I love this thread, it's the best one yet in the Kaye/jamerson fiasco. Maybe this one should be closed to preserve it for posterity.
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