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Carol Kaye Threads (meerged)

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#21
Hi All,

To say this controversy started by Ms. Kayes claims to what is commonly know to have been James Jamerson's recorded work has been blown way out of proportion is like saying the concern over the the lives and music of Elvis, John Lenon, Mozart, Jaco Pastorious and many great musicians over the years has been "blown way out of proportion" just because they are not around to defend themselves.

We as human beings (in general) do care about these people and their contributions to our art and it's history long after they are gone. When somebody who is living assaults those contributions there is going to be (sometimes prolonged) discussion about it.

Anytime someone (wrongly in my opinion) credits anyone other than James Jamerson with the many hits that comprise this controversy, there will be others who defend his legacy. No one here will ever stop that and many will make a whole new controversy over those who defend his music.

Motown and James Jamerson hold a unique place in the history of popular music. Motown is the only record company that I know of that has it's own Genre of music. There is Rock N' Roll, R&B Country and there is Motown.

James Jamerson started bassplaying on a completely different course that it was before. He did things on that precision bass that have stood up for more than 30 years. So did Jaco and we still talk about him some years after his death so don't expect talk of Jamerson/Kaye to go away especially as long as she makes claims to music commonly known to have been performed by Jamerson.

Most bassists think of "Standing In The Shadows Of Motown" as a great book for bassists and I don't think that anything that Mr. Wapensky says or writes will diminish that.

There is (in production as we speak) a documentary by the author of SITSOM addressing in film and with interviews of surviving participants the life and music of the Funk Brothers of Motown (Of which James Jamerson had a central role) that should be out this fall. I would be foolish to say that it will answer all the people who would suggest that Carol Kaye had any significant role in the Motown story so I have no great expectation of the book Mr Wapensky has allegedly been writing for 3 or more years.

I do however think that Jamersons musical legacy (with all of his personal faults) is secure.


BassLand
 
#22
It hasn't been very long since Ms. Kaye was posting regularly on TBL, and several of her last rants were something about an "upcoming documentary on her group of studio pros". She claimed it would prove all her assertions as truth and the whole world would then know the REAL story. Anybody know if that ever came out? I'd love to see that, back to back with the Funk Brothers documentary BassLand mentioned.
 
#24
Originally posted by JimK


...well, for starters, Jamerson's surviving family(which includes his Motown 'family' AND fans!). ;)

My mind has been made up on this 'controversy' for a long time; IMHO, Jamerson's bass playing is steeped more into an upright vibe...his grooves are based on improvisation & surprise, his rhythms & note choices were daring(a little 'outside' even).
IMO, they sound as though he was playin' them the for the FIRST time.

Kaye's lines, IMHO, sound more REHEARSED; they sound more 'consistent'(ie, lacking surprise). She's a guitarist(Jamerson played URB)...her tone on 'her' hits(that are definitely her)is much different than what I'm hearing on "Bernadette" or "I Was Made To Love Her".
One of the 'funkier' tunes I've heard by Kaye is "Hikky-Burr" from Quincy Jones' Smackwater Jack album.
IMHO, the person that played that 'funk' ain't the same player who played on those disputed Motown hits...
Click to expand...

Exactly.
 
#25
To All,

I am of the opinion that the historic record will state that James Jamerson made the music in this controversy, and Carol Kaye made the claims.... I hope she is served well by that legacy.

JimK put his observation into words very well. All one has to do is listen to the music.

There are recorded (bass only) lines Carol uses on her site to "Bernadette" and "I Was Made To Love Her" which she recorded without accompanyment (basslines are, to my knowlege, not copywritable in and of themselves) however Berry Gordy wrote the forword to SITSOM, "Licensed" the written music to SITSOM and allowed a recorded version, with full instrumentation, to be used (Bernadette w/bass by Chuck Rainey and IWMTLH w/ Marcus Miller on bass) to accompany the book along with many other Motown songs.

I believe there is no doubt as to how the Motown founder comes down on this issue, (Jobete controlled that music exclusively at the time of publication of SITSOM and no one used Jobete music without permission). I do not believe you will ever see Carol use the copywrited music she claims to have recorded for Motown in that fashion. What does that suggest?
 
#26
HI All,

I just got a post on my discussion page from Ron Brown (former Motown West session bassist) regarding the Jamerson/Kaye controversy. In that post he answers the question of Jamerson's work on the music in question.
Ron Brown's post:

[This invalid link has been removed]

Peace,

BL
 
#28
Hi Cruise4

I have no concern whatsoever in trying to uncover why, to use your words, "...would Carol lie". If this is a true concern of yours you are asking the wrong person.

To directly adderess your full statement:

"why would Carol lie? Some of you are insinuating that she would be better off letting this go. Why? Wouldn't you want credit for something you recorded? "

All the more reason to present the latest evidence which further confirms that she did not make the music in question. It seems that it is a foregone conclusion on your part that she did record the music in question in spite of the mounting evidence to the contrary. Furthermore you assert her right to defend what by most independant accounts is not true. What you say she believes is not consistant with the facts.

Why don't you go to the link in the above post and see what another LA Studio player who knew both individuals and worked for Motown has to say about it.

Another assertion:

" If James turns out to be the player, I'll still wager that Carol probably recorded versions that just didn't make it to vinyl. We all know that James indulged in pharmaceuticals, wouldn't it be possible that the Motown bosses would have called a sub on occasion (and then covered it up if James recorded a successful version
too)? "

This business of "phamaceuticals" seems to imply that Jamerson was on drugs which facts do not support. It seems real easy for people who support Kayes claims to try to support that drug myth as reason to support their position. It is just rubbish to suggest that jamerson was anything other than a drinker. In any event many noted musicians did far worse and that does not diminish their MUSICAL contribution. What does any of that have to do with the music? The Great Cover Up is another one of those devices, that people who would suggest that Kaye had any involvement in the recordings, use. It just does not flush.

Did Kaye record a version of Bernadette & I Was Made To Love Her? Sure she did, and you can go right to her website and hear her bass only versions. To allow that to be missrepresented as the original recordings borders on the ludicrous in my opinion. Any recodings other than the originally released recordings by the original artist is not in the scope of the issue. If she is mistakenly suggesting that a demo that she did is the original, that needs to be taken up by someone other than myself. She is claiming to have done the originals as I see it. That is what the I am addressing. There is a great deal of independent evidence on my website, Have you seen it?

http://bassland.net/jamerson.html

To use your logic I ask: Why would all those people lie? Why would I lie? If your answer suggest that I or those who supply evidence that it was Jamerson on those recordings would lie and somehow Kaye would not I would be interested in how you arrive at that conclusion.

To John Turner & Cruise4

Although you personally may not care about this subject, the best way to demonstrate that would be to say nothing rather that support suppositions that you certinly can't substantiate (in Cruise4's case).


John, I note that you are a moderator. Does this thread have to peake your personal interest in order to survive on this board?
 
#29
Originally posted by BassLand

John, I note that you are a moderator. Does this thread have to peake your personal interest in order to survive on this board?
Click to expand...

it's still here, isn't it?

all that "moderator" under my name means is that i get the wonderful opportunity to clean up after people get in little pi$$ing contests. like who played what on which song 30 years ago. for instance. ;)

all that, for free. what a bargain.

other than that, i'm just like everyone else, free and encouraged to express my opinions on any topic i choose.
 
#31
Hi Cruise4

First off I am absolutely not upset by anything you said and I am sorry that you got that impression. If you write me privately at [email protected] I can tell you a little about my involvement with this topic.

Point #1 I too do not understand why anyone would lie and just because I have no idea doesn't absolve them from possibly lying. Point being it is not my problem why they are lying or not. only what the evidence points too and the remarks by Ron Brown are considered by me to be more evidence.

Point #2 If you assume she is defending her credits then it would have to be a foregone conclusion that she did the recordings to have anything to defend. You mention "until she is proven wrong" why should her word be taken over the many that dissagree with her claims (too many to list here but including Dr. Licks, the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame, Motown producers and musicians, Anthony Jackson, Chuck Rainey and all the other bassists that honored Jamerosn in SITSOM). Your statement leaves no alturnative as to Jamerson's role in the recordings. It is like saying in the face of mountains of evidence he did not do the records "until he is proven right".

I gotta tell you, I had to go to the dictionary on your use of the term "alliteration", nice word! LOL... What do you do for a living?

Agreed regarding James' alcohol use. Again, what has that got to do with the music? At least in Jamerson's case he performed pretty well in the studio using alcohol. In that sense he was NOT a role model !!!

I guess it was more of JT's dissinterest in this subject rather than yours, sorry.

You might note that I have been around here since March of 2000 so I am not as much of a newbe as you might have thought but I have not posted a lot.
 
#32
(sigh)
I guess I'm weird 'cause it does matter to me who played on these CLASSIC tunes from 30 years ago.
Now if it was Rush(25 years ago)...I could give a rat's ass.











JT-
Gotcha! :D

Back to the discussion(unless JT gives me 'das boot')-
I dunno, may CK actually believes she really played on these tunes(?).
As I posted earlier(couple months ago), I grew up listening to BOTH(+ guys like Joe Osborn, Jemmott, & Rainey)...Rush wasn't really my bag, I was into studio/groove players...not so much "Rock"(at that particular time).
So, IMHO, the same person that played "Good Vibrations" CANNOT be the same that played "I Was Made To Love Her"(the CLASSIC Stevie version). Again, IMmostHO.
JJ's lines are full of surprise & FEEL as though they were played "off-the-cuff". CK's line, IMO, sound "rehearsed"...the FEEL is totally different!
...I don't think I ever heard CK use OPEN strings as Jamerson did(as position shifting 'passing tones').
Rhythmically, JJ was far superior...I mean, IMHO, it's no contest.

Anyway, you guys can have the last word...
 
#33
Did anyone see Carol's comments in the article about the anniversary of the P-bass in BP? She says, "I never played bass before 1963 and invented many of the standard ways of playing styles on Fender bass."

The question is then asked, "How did it (the P-bass) change the music?" The other players (Osborn, Babbit, Bennett) talk about how it changed music in general, while Carol answers, "It's pretty evident what happened to the recording styles-check out the recordings I did on the Precision."

I realize that she is a very important figure in the history of bass, but dang.... She obviously has a very high opinion of herself. The other guys in the article were important, too, and none of them make such egotistical claims. I don't like her attitude at all, although that doesn't mean her claims aren't true. It does make me wonder, though.
 
#34
Originally posted by JimK
(sigh)
I guess I'm weird 'cause it does matter to me who played on these CLASSIC tunes from 30 years ago.
Now if it was Rush(25 years ago)...I could give a rat's ass.




ooooh!!!! i'm winding up, i tell ya, i'm winding up!!


JT-
Gotcha! :D

d'oh!

Back to the discussion(unless JT gives me 'das boot')-
I dunno, may CK actually believes she really played on these tunes(?).
As I posted earlier(couple months ago), I grew up listening to BOTH(+ guys like Joe Osborn, Jemmott, & Rainey)...Rush wasn't really my bag, I was into studio/groove players...not so much "Rock"(at that particular time).
So, IMHO, the same person that played "Good Vibrations" CANNOT be the same that played "I Was Made To Love Her"(the CLASSIC Stevie version). Again, IMmostHO.
JJ's lines are full of surprise & FEEL as though they were played "off-the-cuff". CK's line, IMO, sound "rehearsed"...the FEEL is totally different!
...I don't think I ever heard CK use OPEN strings as Jamerson did(as position shifting 'passing tones').
Rhythmically, JJ was far superior...I mean, IMHO, it's no contest.

Anyway, you guys can have the last word...
Click to expand...

i still think comparing motown to mozart is a huge stretch of the imagination.
 
#35
Originally posted by Monkey
Did anyone see Carol's comments in the article about the anniversary of the P-bass in BP? She says, "I never played bass before 1963 and invented many of the standard ways of playing styles on Fender bass."

The question is then asked, "How did it (the P-bass) change the music?" The other players (Osborn, Babbit, Bennett) talk about how it changed music in general, while Carol answers, "It's pretty evident what happened to the recording styles-check out the recordings I did on the Precision."

I realize that she is a very important figure in the history of bass, but dang.... She obviously has a very high opinion of herself. The other guys in the article were important, too, and none of them make such egotistical claims. I don't like her attitude at all, although that doesn't mean her claims aren't true. It does make me wonder, though.
Click to expand...
i got the same thing from reading that article. i really liked all the responses from everyone else. they sounded like they were putting the focus on the creation and not personal acheivements. sure, they mentioned some of their credits, but it didnt come off the same way as kaye's
 
#36
Carole Kaye is a bit of an egomaniac. Every interview she's ever done is "me me me." She also claims that she was one of the top jazz guitarists in the LA, too. As someone else noted, she also basically says she "invented" Fender bass playing.

She is also quick to point out that she basically "wrote" the hooks for every song she ever played on. "No Matter What Shape" by some one-hit wonder, for instance.

Look, she is a GREAT bass player--I absolutely love her work with the Four Seasons. But her site makes claims that blow my mind. She says she played on the first Doors album--I defy anyone to tell me where there is a bass guitar on that album (although the Doors used session bassists on all their other albums--Doug Lahm and Jerry Scheff are the two that come to mind--Manzarek used organ footpedals exclusively on the first album).

And her Jameson claims are outlandish. She says she cut demos in LA, which were then done in Detroit. In other words, she now concedes that Jameson may have played on the records, but that *she* wrote the parts.

As others have pointed out, the type of playing you hear on the Four Seasons' "Patch Of Blue" and what is on "Bernadette" are two wildly different styles: "Bernadette" has the use of open strings as passing notes, etc., finger playing, and all the other hallmarks of Jameson's upright bass-influenced style. Kaye's stuff is all pick, and is bright toned and very structured--everything you'd expect from a guitarist.

For all her greatness, Kaye seems to be a very insecure individual. I can understand some of this--it must have been very tough being a woman sessioneer in the 60s--but she has let it go to her head.

Now, if you want a real debate, let's talk about who played bass on "The Love You Take," Jameson or Bob Babbitt (those saying Jermaine Jackson shall be flogged. ;))
 
#37
I recall the Four Seasons but I believe they are an East Coast group who recorded in Philly and was produced by Bob Crewe originally and later by Bob Gaudio. From the Roch N Roll Hall of Fame:

"As a teenager living in Newark, New Jersey, Valli sang with the Varietones, who later changed their name to the Four Lovers and had a minor hit with an Otis Blackwell number, "You're the Apple of My Eye," in 1956. With the addition of Gaudio, they changed their name to the Four Seasons and began working with Philadelphia producer Bob Crewe. In addition to Gaudio and Valli, the Four Seasons' definitive lineup included singer/guitarist Tommy DeVito and bass vocalist/vocal arranger Nick Massi (later replaced by Joe Long). At their peak, the Four Seasons made recordings that expressed the tough-but-tender sensibility of their home turf in the Northeast much in the way the Beach Boys encapsulated the world of Southern California in harmony and song. In the words of Billy Joel, a longtime fan who grew up listening to them on Long Island, "The Four Seasons had wonderful chord progressions, beautiful writing, terrific production fantastic harmony, records that really spoke to us." "

The RNR HOF article

[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]

does not make any mention of a California connection other than noting that the Northeastern group (Four Seasons) had vocal harmonies remenissent of their Californial counterpart, The Beach Boys. It would seem that Motown is not the only record company/Recording group that seems to be at odds with what Kaye claims (if in fact they are her claims).


I am certainly no authority on Frankie Vallie and the Four Seasons, I did research on the web which uncovered what I view as a possible descrepancy regarding the statement by Steve Holroyd in the previous post. I also seem to remember that the bassist for the Seasons was a member of the group.
 
#38
BassLand:

The Four Seasons certainly had their own stage bassist. Then again, so did the Beach Boys. But I'm sure you know by now that this does not mean that session vets didn't "ghost" on records.

The Four Seasons were an East Coast group. Like many groups (especially studio "pop" groups), they recorded many sides out in California. Especially by 1970, when "Patch Of Blue" was recorded.

Ironically, the Seasons were signed to Motown's MoWest label near the end of their run, recording one released album. On those tracks, I hear the funky, finger-style playing of Jameson, who did do West Coast sessions when the Corporation up and moved.
 
#40
Hi BTM,

A great later recording featuring Jamerson is "What's Happening Brother" from the album What's Going On by Marvin Gaye. There is a transcription of this bassline (sorry, no TAB) at:

[This invalid link has been removed]

As a matter of fact it was one of the last great recordings done at Motown Detroit and the song content was so powerful that (IMO) it was the last harrah of what had become a music institution here in the states.

BTW There is a CD "Whats' Going On the Deluxe Edition", that featues many versions of most of the WGO album, a Detroit mix, an LA mix and a live version. There is also a mix called "the Foundation" which is WGO with only Jamerson's bass line and not much else for the first half of the track with the drums, strings and other instruments coning in after. I checked the transcription and it is the same performance but I was really struck by it's sound without all the mixing and sweetening. It must have been taken off the multitrack master which is generally not eq'ed or compressed heavily.

If you are interested in Motown musicians in general there is a documentary/movie coming out (DVD & tape to follow) telling the story of the Funk Brothers (as Motown's core studio musicians were called). I have seen most of it and can tell you that it is great to see the guys who made all that music. It is the music of my youth (I am 52) and when it was happening, I did not have a clue as to any visual representation of those events in Detroit. Even if it is 30+ years later it was really great to see what Johnny Griffith, Earl Van Dyke, Pistol Allen, Bob Babbitt, and all the other guys playing and tellign their story. There is plenty of Jamerson content but the story is not about Jamerson per se.

Take care,

BassLand
 
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