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Carol Kaye Threads (meerged)

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#61
My point is that you may disagree with some of the things she says/claims, but you should not dismiss her talent and her accomplishments based on what you feel to be her errors. People are multi-faceted. My objective in life is to remain open-minded and gain from each teacher/bass player/situation more knowledge, ideas, tools for my tool-box. I'm not pushing that on anyone. When I responded to the e-mails that were already up about Carol, I was simply offering food-for-thought. What I said is what I believe, but I'm not asking you to believe it also, just respect it. No one has addressed the issue that many pro's have wondered about Bernadette because they had doubts that it was Jamerson's work. It was mentioned that many other bass players did not claim other bassists work but are still BAD bass players. First of all, you are assuming that Carol is claiming something that doesn't belong to her. There are no hard facts regarding the debate, otherwise there would be no debate. Secondly, Jamerson died after he came out to L.A....some say of a broken heart from the way he was treated on the L.A. scene...that's deep! If he were here today, he might be in the midst of the debate also because of the nature of the time...they did not give credit to studio musicians at that time so no written records were kept. Many over-dubs were done and sometimes they would record and then scrap everything only to record over with different musicians. So it is possible that both Jamerson and Kaye had recorded Bernadette at various points. She plays it with the same feel and notes as the recording. But again, I am not saying that I know she played on Bernadette. I am just not going to waste everything she has to offer by focusing on a debate that may never be solved. I don't get involved in rivalries because they cloud the ability to gain knowledge from all parties. I listen to as many bass players as possible and gain a lot from that. I respect everyone's right to their opinion. The only time I discredit a person's opinion is when it is blatently based on racist or prejudiced beliefs.
By the way, one of my favorite stories about The Hook (as they called Jamerson b/c he plucked the srings with only his index finger) is the following:
One night, Jamerson was leaving a gig when a man tried to rob Jamerson at gunpoint (bad move!). Jamerson was carrying a gun that was as small as a pen for protection, and ended up robbing the robber for not only his own wallet back but the robber's too! That's my boy for that! :)
Peace y'all. And keep growing as bassists and people!
 
#62
I think your assertion that the bassist on this stuff was anyone other than James L. Jamerson has been sufficiently addressed amd does not need repeating. As long as your assertions are followed by a balanced account of the facts and they read what I have said next to what you have said (Carol does not say much outside of her website and a few interviews) I have no doubt what most people will conclude so if you are looking to "win" this debate at this point "you got it".

Now you can tell all your friends how you (think) you have convinced me that it is your way. Good for you. Alright because she played on "Help Me Rhonda" it absolves her from claiming Bernadette when she did not play on that record by all reasonable accounts. Happy now?

See ya around the pool hall Buddy

BassLand

PS Your last post looks like one mile long sentence but I struggled thru it enough to take the above position. Look up "paragraph" in the dictionary... use them... be well and prosper Nanu Nanu
 
#63
Well, I don't think you will call me "Buddy" at the pool-hall if you see me, because I'm a fly woman (and modest too :) )
And most people that read my e-mailed response will hopefully understand that I wasn't trying to "win" anything. I have no use for such petty things. Just wanted to put my 2cents in and display another viewpoint.
I wish you luck in your therapy seesions for your misguided anger. :)
I play too much, man I tickle myself!
 
#64
Thank you Dr. Batacoto. Do you serve fries with that physcological diagnosis? Now I hope everybody else read my first response to Batacoto (when I admittedly assumed she was a man). I ain't mad at nobody and have no anger toward Batacoto. That armchair therapy "misguided anger" crack sounds like Carol... What I do have is a deep abiding respect for the true history of my instrument and it's players.

I thought winning was the aim of the debate. "If not it would not be a debate". I heard that some where... From you maybe?

Well Batacoto You got your two cents in and got change in return. Nice chatting with you. Maybe I will see you working a gig some where instead of the pool hall. That would be more intreresting anyway as I don't play pool...

BL:bassist:

PS Of the thirty five topics on the first page of this "bassist" category, only 5 topics have more "views" than this thread so make no mistake about it. People are watching this thread
 
#65
I just received an e-mail from Batacoto; the basic "You're an evil male who doesn't know 'jack'".
Whatever.
I had not replied to a Carol Kaye thread in awhile, so I guessed right...here it is(I read only this page & have no desire/energy to go back over the SOS again).
...anyway, glad to see I wasn't the only one on Batacoto's 'hit parade'.

How's it goin' Bob?
;)
 
#68
Bob-
I hadda check my e-mail again...wanted to make sure we didn't a 'form letter'.
Apparently, we didn't(Whew).

I am the "obnoxious male" who doesn't seem to appreciate female bassists. That's news to me.

I also liked this Bata nugget-
"We still have our pride, our houses, our cars, our hits, our memories, our laughs(many times at men like yourself while we're talking shop in the ladies room at gigs/session)".

LOL...man, my side is beginning to ache.
 
#71
Bassland, I would be interested in any "proof" you have about Carol Kaye and James Jamerson. I have been to your site and have read everything there and I am still not sure who to believe.
You can email me at [email protected] or my business is [email protected].
I would like to know more about your reasearch on this subject. Do you know Allan Slutsky? I see some of his work on your site. I love both Bass players and I am willing to listen to what you have to say or show to me regarding either player.......thanks Treena :)
 
#72
Kaye's rants on Jamerson (and similarly, Berlin's rants on Jaco) remind me a lot of the story of Salieri's obsession with Mozart that formed the premise of "Amadeus". Honestly, these are great players and everyone knows it. Why the venom over a peer that, for a myriad of reasons, gained more acclaim?
 
#74
Here is one interview. And a quote:

Invalid Link Removed

Berlin: "(laughs uproariously) You have to stand in awe - that's my quote for the day!! - of bass players, good bass players, capable, talented, intelligent, hard felt musical bass players who cannot get the monkey of the idea of Jaco Pastorius out of their lives.

I am astonished at the continuous supply of Jaco records, "this song is for Jaco" "this is Jaco's birthday", "this is Jaco's whatever". If I hear one more version of 'Continuum' or one more version of 'Teentown' from a bass player not accepting that the man has been dead for 15 years! It is time to MOVE ON!!!!!!!! Seek out something in your musical life that comes from you!

I don't claim to know what Jaco would have wanted, but I do know that we bass players have put entirely too much emphasis on his contributions. I said years ago, you are gonna lose sight of your own perspective.

Fifteen years later, we are still mourning him. I feel that the mourning should be left to his family and friends now. But we as bass players get off that goddamn Jaco Pastorius bandwagon and move on!"


While it's not the most inflamatory I have seen from him on the subject (merely insensitive, in my view), it is the only one I have an on-line link to. I've read other interviews with him where he goes off on the subject. It is almost like they bait him on it to get copy.
 
#75
Originally posted by Bass Aficionado
Here is one interview. And a quote:

Invalid Link Removed

Berlin: "(laughs uproariously) You have to stand in awe - that's my quote for the day!! - of bass players, good bass players, capable, talented, intelligent, hard felt musical bass players who cannot get the monkey of the idea of Jaco Pastorius out of their lives.

I am astonished at the continuous supply of Jaco records, "this song is for Jaco" "this is Jaco's birthday", "this is Jaco's whatever". If I hear one more version of 'Continuum' or one more version of 'Teentown' from a bass player not accepting that the man has been dead for 15 years! It is time to MOVE ON!!!!!!!! Seek out something in your musical life that comes from you!

I don't claim to know what Jaco would have wanted, but I do know that we bass players have put entirely too much emphasis on his contributions. I said years ago, you are gonna lose sight of your own perspective.

Fifteen years later, we are still mourning him. I feel that the mourning should be left to his family and friends now. But we as bass players get off that goddamn Jaco Pastorius bandwagon and move on!"


While it's not the most inflamatory I have seen from him on the subject (merely insensitive, in my view), it is the only one I have an on-line link to. I've read other interviews with him where he goes off on the subject. It is almost like they bait him on it to get copy.
Click to expand...

Well, I love what Jaco did, but I agree with what Berlin says here, and I don't think it's particularly insensitive either. Maybe he says other things elsewhere that would be more offensive, but here's one Jaco fan that has no problem with Berlin on what he says here.
 
#76
"From: Carol Kaye <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]

On Motown (from writer JS):

In the '60s, Motown recorded backing tracks in Detroit and L.A. (MANY
were done in L.A.), and vocal overdubs usually in Detroit, occasionally
in L.A. Over the years since, the myth has built up that everything (or
everything really good--that's another version of the myth) was done in
Detroit, for a variety of reasons.

Why do anything in L.A.? Various reasons, including the greatest
session musicians in the world who were then creating and recording the hits of the 60s, certainly a better pool than was available in Detroit, and also reportedly problems with the reliability of one or more top Detroit players, e.g. Benny Benjamin was a heroin addict, would show up really late, pawn other people's drums for heroin money, etc. etc.)

Alcoholism killed James Jamerson (and also my mother, so I think I have
some insight into Jamerson's mentality). Near the end of his life (early '80s) Jamerson was too far gone with the alcohol and other problems to play well anymore--he could hardly write legibly, let alone play. In his mind he was still great, and he was trying to find work in L.A. At this time, while trying to find work, he made the claim that he played on "ALL" the Motown recordings (of the '60s). That was very untrue (and physically impossible, so many Motown recordings were made) but he probably believed it himself! That's what alcohol does to the brain near the end. He also told stories to family members and friends about his playing on various Motown hits (at least one of which was actually done by Carol Kaye).

Again, he probably believed these stories himself and sounded plausible. After all, "James Jamerson" and "Benny Benjamin" were the
best-known names of Motown players to musicians and Motown fans anyway, even then, so his fibbing must have sounded "obviously right" (but not) to people he talked to."

That is just part of the babble that Carol Kaye has been saying about the Funk Brothers trying ti discredit 'Standing In The Shadows of Motown'....she is senile!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
#78
I have heard one side of the story and I am interested in the other side.
I for one can not make a decision without all the facts, which in the case Kaye v Jamerson there seem to be some missing pieces and I am asking those of you who have beat this into the ground to enlighten me.
Are there books that I can read to support either side of the story?
Thank you for your info in advance.:)
 
#79
Originally posted by girlbassplayer1 I for one can not make a decision without all the facts, which in the case Kaye v Jamerson there seem to be some missing pieces and I am asking those of you who have beat this into the ground to enlighten me.
Click to expand...

My only advice:
...use your own ears.
 
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