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Carol Kaye Threads (meerged)

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#101
I did not say it didn't matter, someone else posted that! Wulf posted it!

I feel it matters to me and the people who actually did the playing. I feel in my heart that BL is a genuine, compassinate man who believes in JJ and I am not trying to discredit JJ at all, who am I to make that judgement, I feel both Kaye and Jamerson played on Motown cuts and both should have credit. Why say Carol didn't play any Motown hits?
 
#102
Originally posted by girlbassplayer1
I did not say it didn't matter, someone else posted that! Wulf posted it!

I feel it matters to me and the people who actually did the playing. I feel in my heart that BL is a genuine, compassinate man who believes in JJ and I am not trying to discredit JJ at all, who am I to make that judgement, I feel both Kaye and Jamerson played on Motown cuts and both should have credit. Why say Carol didn't play any Motown hits?
Click to expand...

Yes, but you posting saying you thought wulf was right, no? Look, it's not that big a deal, I'm not trying to crucify you or anybody.

I think you keep misunderstanding the point at issue. I don't believe people are saying Kaye never did one bit of work for Motown or even, necessarily, that she never played on one single solitary Motown hit. What is mainly at issue is a *certain set of Motown recordings*, which the (to me) overwhelming evidence says Jamerson played on but which Kaye claims to have done. Sure, everybody should have credit for what he or she does. If, for example, Kaye played on one version of, say, River Deep Mountain High, she should get credit for that. But I don't believe she played on the hit version of Bernadette, so I believe Jamerson should get credit for that. It's that simple. It's not about persecuting or discrediting Carol Kaye, it's about credit for work done.
 
#103
Why say Carol didn't play any Motown hits?

When credible evidence leads to that conclusion why not state it? You state you are not trying to discredit the Funk Brothers. It is a no brainer where they and the producers of the records in question are regarding this matter. Two people should not have credit for something only one of them did. It is just that simple.

When it comes to Bernadette, Baby Love, I was Made To Love Her, and the other Motown recordings that comprise this controversy unfortunately Carol Kaye does NOT get the nod for the achievement.

BL
 
#104
Richard , yes, I do agree with you on all accounts!
I just finished reading this: Motown's West Coast Studio Band.

During the mid-Sixties Motown augmented its overwhelming Detroit recording schedule with a few west Coast sessions. In addition to accommodate complex touring schedules the company often flew tapes between Los Angeles and Detroit. The majority of the hits were still being recorded in Detroit, but by the late 60s the Los Angeles operation played an increasingly important role. The Jackson 5 sessions, in fact, were recorded almost entirely in Los Angeles.

Keyboards - Mike Rubini, Joe Sample, Clarence McDonald, Don Randi, Larry Knechtel
Guitars - Arthur Wright, David T. Walker, Thomas Tedesco, Louie Shelton, Adolph Green, Weldon T. Parks
Bass - Wilson Felder, Carol Kaye, Bill Pitman, Ron Brown
Drums - Earl Palmer, Ed Greene, Gene Pello, Paul Humphreys
Percussion - Gary Coleman, Bobbye Porter, King Errisson, Joe Clayton, Sandra Crouch, Jerry Steinholtz, Emil Richards
Arrangers - Gene Page, James Carmichael, Arthur Wright, Gil Ashley

courtesy Allan (Dr. Licks) Slutsky

Now I have my answer.
Thanks Allan!
 
#106
All this printing out of long lists of credits etc. is totally irrelevant - anybody who knows the slightest thing about bass playing only needs to listen and the answer is very clear - they are two distinct playing styles which could never be confused!

I am incredulous that there is so much discussion - I can't imagine that any bass player wouldn't be able to tell the differnce just by listening? :confused:

Why does this keep running?
 
#107
I stated to you once before, I have excellent hearing, in fact I own and operate a highly successful commercial recording facility in the SF bay area. I have engineered on several projects for numerous labels over the past 20 years. I currently am signed with Sony, Yet my reputation is not in question here is it.My bass tracks are not being discredited are they.
This is the reason for such a discussion.:D
 
#108
Bruce,

You ask why this keeps running? I can hear the difference between the two style wise and otherwise. Whenever Kayes supporters address this issue they claim that Kaye is being discredited.

"Yet my reputation is not in question here is it.My bass tracks are not being discredited are they. "

Somehow it is OK to discredit the most innovative bassplayer of his time in favor someone else. It get rather exasperating at times and this is when you will see a shortness of my patience when speaking with these individuals. It gets right back to the FACT that Carols bass tracks nor her reputation is being attacked here but Jamerson's... Listen...

Then there is the lame "what about Babbitt" "what about flying tapes" excuses to augment the argument that it was Kaye. At least Babbitt was in the same City and had a simular sound to Jmaerson's (Heck that is why he would have been hired at Motown in the first place) so I would expect some degree of confusion about certain tracks (Signed Sealed Delivered comes to mind) and after the fact you can tell that Babbitt is a very emotional supporter of Jamerson.

As an example of "flying Tapes", "Whats Going On" (the album) was mixed in Detroit and then totally remixed in L.A. I am sure that other Motown product was flown to L.A. starting in the LATE 1960's but most of them (and all of the early to late 1960's records in question) were recorded in Detroit. Who in their right mind would take James Jamerson off Bernadette or IWMTLH and put Carol Kaye in his place? Again LISTEN...

BL

This is my last post on this current issue as I have reached the point where it is fruitless to go on. I am sure Carols supporters will keep going at it but I don't care. It is too easy to just say "I believe it was ***** ****" and that is really no defense against it since it is so easy to say over and over again even in the face of Mountains of evidence to the contrary. As always I could change my mind depending on what I read and feel at a given moment in the future but for now, I am through...
 
#109
gbp1,

You're quoting Allan Slutsky, but he is the cat that has researched the matter more than anyone else.

Follow this link to what I consider to be the last word on the subject by Slutsky himself.

Invalid Link Removed

Now, go rent the "Standing In The Shadows" DVD and listen to the soloed bass track from "Bernadette". Carol Kaye? 'Fraid not!
 
#110
Here's just one of the facts:

1) The songwriting-production team of Holland-Dozier-Holland attested to the
fact that James Jamerson played on almost every one of their productions,
and they never allowed others to produce songs that they had written. Brian
Holland signed a notarized affidavit categorically stating that
"Bernadette", "Reach Out", "Can't Help Myself", "Keep Me Hanging On",
"Standing in the Shadows of Love", "Reflections", "Baby Love", "Back In My
Arms Again", "Come See About Me", and "Can't Hurry Love", (all tunes claimed
by Carol) were in fact, played by James Jamerson. Most damning was his
statement that he had never even heard of Carol Kaye.
 
#111
I played many local venues covering James Jamerson's Motown work at the time these hits were current. To say that I was an ethusiastic student of Mr. Jamerson's playing would be gross understatement, and he was a significant influence on my early years as a musician.

It surprised me to see someone relatively unknown to me (Carole Kaye) attempting to lay claim to these songs in later years. I've followed Bob Lee's crusade, listened to both sides of the argument and I've formed my own opinions as to the merit, or lack thereof, of Ms. Kaye's claims.

Ms. Kaye and her official website claim credit for other well known songs of the period... one that stands out is Midnight Confessions by the Grass Roots. For those who aren't familiar, that's Joe Osborn on bass. Also, what is she inferring through the liberal use of "etc." (songname, etc. - artist), that she played on ALL the hits?

Ms. Kaye is establishing a pattern that is all too familiar. I have also "covered" that song, but I don't claim credit for having written it, despite the fact that I put some of myself into the playing. For me, this brings all of her claims into question and lowers her credibility. Listen to Creedence Clearwater's version of Grapevine. That's clearly Stu Cook on bass, but he isn't claiming credit for someone else's work. I'm sure Ms. Kaye had many opportunities to play the Motown classics during her sessions and tours, but that doesn't give her claim to the songs.

Please note that I have infinite respect for Ms. Kaye's abilities as a musician and an instructor. I just don't believe in much else that she has to say.
 
#112
While until recently this was an interesting discussion, it's kinda pointless now. We can either all agree, or agree to disagree. Let Mr. Jamerson rest in peace, and Ms. Kaye's conscience deal with her as to whether or not she's telling the truth. IMHO, this thead has turned into an incredible waste of bandwidth, and is maybe causing hard feelings. Let it rest folks...
 
#113
To Phil Smith,

A few posts back I complained about something happening to my Bassland id and some issue with my new Satie id.

Well I wrote the moderator and found out someone had hacked my BL account and I find thatt since then (maybe just coincidence) my IP address is changing ever 10 minutes or so. WHen I start a reply and the address changes TB doesn't know who I am anymore. The ID and the IP dont match up and board software throws me off so in fact nothing sinister (with the exception of my BL id hack) so no parinoia just crazy computers...

Satie (aka Bassland)
 
#114
The right Rev Groove wants this thread closed down. Well 2150 people have viewed it and only 9 of the first 33 topics have more views than this thread. Somebody is interested and I would not be surprised if this thread doesn't go anywhere. You could however, not come back if you don't like it. It seems fruitless to come to this thread and complain about it. vote with your feet. That is what I do when I am no longer interested.

BL
 
#115
Originally posted by satie
To Phil Smith,

A few posts back I complained about something happening to my Bassland id and some issue with my new Satie id.

Well I wrote the moderator and found out someone had hacked my BL account and I find thatt since then (maybe just coincidence) my IP address is changing ever 10 minutes or so. WHen I start a reply and the address changes TB doesn't know who I am anymore. The ID and the IP dont match up and board software throws me off so in fact nothing sinister (with the exception of my BL id hack) so no parinoia just crazy computers...

Satie (aka Bassland)
Click to expand...

When you're on a dial up connection, you never get the same IP address when you connect so I doubt if that's the issue, whether or not your system is allowing cookies may be the crux of your problem.
 
#116
I am on Dial-up at home and DSL at work. I have no problems with either one:D


BTW, MIKE Ms Kaye did not bring this up, I was posting to my friend Rana Ross and her passing and I saw the thread and decided to see what was going on. I came here and I posted to what was already being said, Carol has nothing to do with it. I am 42 years old and I have my own research......so I am here now!;)
 
#118
Originally posted by girlbassplayer1
I stated to you once before, I have excellent hearing, in fact I own and operate a highly successful commercial recording facility in the SF bay area. I have engineered on several projects for numerous labels over the past 20 years. I currently am signed with Sony, Yet my reputation is not in question here is it.My bass tracks are not being discredited are they.
This is the reason for such a discussion.:D
Click to expand...

Well - what do you hear when you listen to the tracks in question - I cannot believe that any reasonably experienced bass player could fail to distinguish between two very different styles?

Why do you need to quote track listings etc. - the evidence of your ears is all you need? Their styles are nothing like each other! :confused:
 
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