choosing a wireless transmitter for IEM

[Mayo Fan]

Nothing special, KZ ZS10 Pro or ProX I think. It's not that it was always unplayable, far from it. There were a few times where it was definitely annoying to hear the radio noise between songs or during soft passages and only once that it was so bad I reverted to wired. That last instance must have been user error, nobody would be able to endure that voluntarily.

So am I suggesting I might have exaggerated my bad experiences a little bit for the sake of the argument? ... It's just that IME, IMHO I read a lot of unjustified myths in this UHF/2.4Ghz debate that keep popping up about congestion and signal quality. Which is why I felt the sudden need to advocate for the so called underdog.

I do recognise that UHF systems have been around for decades and legions of players have used them to their content, I can't discard that either.

 

[s0c9]

Nothing special, KZ ZS10 Pro or ProX I think. It's not that it was always unplayable, far from it. There were a few times where it was definitely annoying to hear the radio noise between songs or during soft passages and only once that it was so bad I reverted to wired. That last instance must have been user error, nobody would be able to endure that voluntarily.

So am I suggesting I might have exaggerated my bad experiences a little bit for the sake of the argument? ... It's just that IME, IMHO I read a lot of unjustified myths in this UHF/2.4Ghz debate that keep popping up about congestion and signal quality. Which is why I felt the sudden need to advocate for the so called underdog.

I do recognise that UHF systems have been around for decades and legions of players have used them to their content, I can't discard that either.

Are you based in Amsterdam?
I'm asking because your experience is not reflective of 2.4/5Ghz use vs UHF in the US, especially in urban areas.

BTW - there's really no such thing as "digital" wireless. It's marketing.
2.4G in Europe has 14 channels, the USA is limited to 12 of those. NONE are "digital" per se, and yes, most of the 12 can interfere with the others (excepting 1, 6 and 11).
Thus, every modern transmitter/receiver combo in todays world is technically "digital", but digital is usually assigned based on how the device modulates the base carrier signal. The wider the frequency range the carrier frequency can be modulated, the higher the quality that can be represented, similar to sampling rate in a digital audio file. The signal is decoded on the receiver end, reproducing the original signal. Thus, digital in not necessarily better than analog.

UHF is available in the US from 470–608 Mhz, which is what we fight over since the FCC sold off the 660+ Mhz spectrum to cell phone 5G carriers. It works very well here.

 

[Mayo Fan]

I agree, digital is not the proper term here. It's an easy one because any of the 2.4Ghz systems I've read about use AD/DA conversion and list the conversion specs as an important selling point (the infamous "our 24bit/48khz beats CD quality" marketing bs). This in contrast to most UHF systems where they usually market some form of comparing/expanding that is used to get the most dynamic range and best signal/noise ratio out of the system (e.g. Sennheiser HDX, is that supposed to mean it's better than HD?). But to make any of it work, not even taking into a account the built-in limiters and EQs, they must be applying ADC and back.

I'm in the Amsterdam area yes, but I don't see how that is significant here. Amsterdam is more densely populated than the average US city thus logically it should have more WiFi home connections etc. But what live music venue is in the middle of a apartment building? My point is that in practice the transmitter is always on stage and so is the transceiver on my belt. And stages are not crowded with WiFi networks, at least not where I play. You must have 10 other WiFi access points each on a different channel near that stage before it becomes an issue. Just keep them within eyesight and you should be fine.

 

[edwinhurwitz]

Are you based in Amsterdam?
I'm asking because your experience is not reflective of 2.4/5Ghz use vs UHF in the US, especially in urban areas.

BTW - there's really no such thing as "digital" wireless. It's marketing.

My understanding is that there are systems which convert the analog signal to digital bits and send them to the receiver when converts the signal back to analog. That's digital. OTOH, if you mean that the digital signals are carried over an analog medium, well, you could say that digital doesn't exist at all.

Here's one that specifies 24 bit operation: IEM-DIGITAL-4

That said, all the high end ones are analog.

It appears that radio signals in the 2.4/5.6Ghz ranges generally carry digital information.

Here's an article from Shure: https://www.shure.com/en-EU/perform.../digital-wireless-faq-your-questions-answered

Reading reviews of the 2.4Ghz systems, it appears that interference is a big problem.

 

[s0c9]

My understanding is that there are systems which convert the analog signal to digital bits and send them to the receiver when converts the signal back to analog. That's digital. OTOH, if you mean that the digital signals are carried over an analog medium, well, you could say that digital doesn't exist at all.

yes, but most all do that .. it's how.. I stated above (not trying to be argumentative, but..)

"Thus, every modern transmitter/receiver combo in todays world is technically "digital", but digital is usually assigned based on how the device modulates the base carrier signal. The wider the frequency range the carrier frequency can be modulated, the higher the quality that can be represented, similar to sampling rate in a digital audio file. The signal is decoded on the receiver end, reproducing the original signal. Thus, digital in not necessarily better than analog."

Reading reviews of the 2.4Ghz systems, it appears that interference is a big problem.

ABSOLUTELY - most bars, clubs and venues with live music often have multiple 2.4G systems in operation - even if just a public and private one.
Those with House PA systems often have totally separate 2.4G networks for the PA folks. That's THREE (maybe more) 2.4G networks in the building.. more potential interference if it's located in a strip mall or not too separated from other buildings. Then there's the band/mixer one YOU are using. That's FOUR separate 2.4G network already. Which are using the same channels you've chose for you bass, or IEM's??
Then, there's all those smart phones that have wireless activated, scanning for networks.
ALL of this causes clutter and potential interference in the spectrum.

Bands should [really] use 5Ghz on stage if possible - when not using 470-608 Mhz devices - shorter distance, faster and much better for adjusting things on stage. Most newer tablets and smart phones support 2.4/5 Mhz bands.

Note that the UHF interference in most US urban areas is from local TV stations, NOT the venue.. which vary greatly in xmit power and thus, interference potential.
At least one can scan for open channels (if needed) on ALL of the usable bands - 2.4, 5Mhz and 470-608 Mhz.
And yes even "digital" 2.4G will get interference from devices using any of the overlapping channel (2-5, 7-10, 12) and also from those using 1, 6, or 11 - any of which might be your chosen channel.
Same applies to 5 Mhz channels that are DFS. Your US router is probably aware of DFS channels and will switch you AWAY from them, but it's easier to choose non-DFS channels (if supported on the router or mixer [rare]) and go ahead select 36, 40, 44, 48, 149, 153, 157, or 161.

Check the doc in my sig for more info.

 

[baxter_x]

I agree, digital is not the proper term here

Am a bit lost here.
Isn't it digital since the signal is converted in 1 and 0?
While analog devices do not convert the signal but compress it thank the commander?

 

[Jeroenslowend]

Thanks for the replies guys!
I am located near Amsterdam indeed, and we (6 piece band) are slowly moving to a no amp stage. We have a X32 as IEM mixer (with strong 2.4 and 5ghz router) and everyone has a ipad for his own IEM mix on stage. We are now using wired Iems (dual cable from ernie ball with pm2 belt pack), but we all want to go wireless, except for the drummer.
So there is a lot of traffoc goung on in the wifi range. I am using a nux 5ghz wirelss set for my bass now, and that is working OK. Have hear some small dents while playing, but accepatable.
The UHF band below 700 is allowed here and around 604-660 is a paid band for professional use. But legal if one buys a licence. 400-604 is free, but also used for broadcasting.
I've hear that frequencies close to 600 are best here for wireless connections.
I am looking at the Senn XSW, the G4 and AT as a more expensive option. The shure and Senn all start >45 hz. My low E is around 40. Would that be audible? The AT is more expensive but goes lower and seems to be stronger in transmitting.

 

[baxter_x]

The shure and Senn all start >45 hz. My low E is around 40. Would that be audible?

Absolutely not!

 

[Mayo Fan]

Am a bit lost here.
Isn't it digital since the signal is converted in 1 and 0?
While analog devices do not convert the signal but compress it thank the commander?

What I meant to say is that digital is not a useful term to make the distinction since they are all digital in some form.

 

[baxter_x]

What I meant to say is that digital is not a useful term to make the distinction since they are all digital in some form.

They are digital as long as it's bits. If not, then it's analog.
My old Sennheiser G3 was analog. My new Sennheiser ew-c1 is digital.

 

[tadawson]

Are those "illegal" frequencies really a thing?
I have used an "illegal" Sennheiser system for many years without any issue.
And I've never seen the police rushing into someone's home for such a reason.

Absolutely if you're a pro rental company it's another subject.

Depends who who you step on . . . Interfere with a public safety (or similar) service and get the FCC lit up, and the fines can be brutal (and they don't care if you are a mega business or a Joe-Bob - you interfered with a critical service just the same).

 

[tadawson]

Am a bit lost here.
Isn't it digital since the signal is converted in 1 and 0?
While analog devices do not convert the signal but compress it thank the commander?

Analog does not necessarily compress anything (there is no reason to), but may limit if overdriven to not over modulate off channel. I've used Senn G3 and G4 (The G3 rig freq. became illegal) with my Ultimate UE10's, and the sound is identical plugged into the console monitoring the bus, or off the wireless, and no noise is audible.If it sounds compressed, likely the TX is being overdriven.

 

[baxter_x]

Analog does not necessarily compress anything (there is no reason to), but may limit if overdriven to not over modulate off channel. I've used Senn G3 and G4 (The G3 rig freq. became illegal) with my Ultimate UE10's, and the sound is identical plugged into the console monitoring the bus, or off the wireless, and no noise is audible.If it sounds compressed, likely the TX is being overdriven.

Every analog systems do you a compander, so yes, the compression of the signal is there. And there is a reason for this.
And the loss of dynamic, and tone is obvious. Which is non existent with digital systems.
I was struggling with my G3 to minimize losses, I never had to tweak anything with my digital wireless.

But we are drifting away from the subject. There are digital and analog systems.

 

[baxter_x]

Depends who who you step on . . . Interfere with a public safety (or similar) service and get the FCC lit up, and the fines can be brutal (and they don't care if you are a mega business or a Joe-Bob - you interfered with a critical service just the same).

This situation will never happen. Unless you play in the middle of a military base. And I even doubt you will interfere with anything.

 

[Bufalo]

I have about 20 gigs down on 4 units of the Uvive transmitters/receivers. All different types of venues. They work, they sound good. I have found that they interfere with other 2.4gHz wireless more than they are affected by them. Zero cross-talk between the four signals. So, I no longer use my G30 for my basses and my Sennheiser XSW-D plug-on transmitter drops out when they're working. Still, I get four *reasonably* reliable in-ear channels for 800ish bucks and I use cables for the other stuff. When there are dropouts, they're maybe a half second and not continuous or repeating. I've been satisfied with them for bar-band / medium-stage use.

 

[tadawson]

This situation will never happen. Unless you play in the middle of a military base. And I even doubt you will interfere with anything.

It's already happened . . . you need to get out more . . . Interfere with local poli/fire/rescue is enough, and some of the mobile carriers get really ugly really fast as well.

And getting away with something that is clearly illegal does not make it any less illegal (or stupid).

Here is an enforcement against an individual with nothing moren han a security camera still on 700MHz (also formerly wireless mic use):
Link Removed

There are many more, but I'm not nored enough to dig through them for more examples.

 

[baxter_x]

you need to get out more . .

Thank you for this advice but you don't know me.
If interferences.occu, just change the frequency.
I have owned and used an "illegal" Sennheiser wireless for about 7 years and I never faces any issues of any kind.

 

[claudel]

Is your bass also going wireless? If you’re still using a cable for your bass, I recommend making or buying a combined iem/instrument cable. Then put your P1 pack wherever you plug in your bass ie. pedal board or amp. Ernie Ball makes one of these cables now. Though pricey, it’s cheaper than a good wireless unit which will probably still get occasional drop outs. I mount my wired iem belt pack (behringer P2) to my pedal board, or set next to amp when I’m not using my pedal board, then use the combined cable. (I’ve made my own with a cable sheath and bought the Ernie Ball, both work well) It feels like I’m just using a normal instrument cable, nothing extra.

If you’re bass is wireless then it makes sense to research and invest in a good wireless IEM setup. If your bass is wired, it makes more sense TO ME to get something like the Ernie Ball combo cable.


Ernie Ball P06411 Instrument and Headphone Combo Cable

Since I seem to be a gear slut I bought one of the Ernie Ball combo cables on a whim and like it a lot.

Not having tangled cables or worrying about frequencies & more batteries makes me smile for < $100.

It's a bit bulky, but not obnoxiously so.

 

[tadawson]

Thank you for this advice but you don't know me.
If interferences.occu, just change the frequency.
I have owned and used an "illegal" Sennheiser wireless for about 7 years and I never faces any issues of any kind.

Based on that last, I know that you choose to be a criminal, and that's enough for me . . .

 

[baxter_x]

Based on that last, I know that you choose to be a criminal, and that's enough for me . . .

Yes, very dangerous criminal......