Class D amp with the most slam/punch

[vickerekes]

A lot of discussion here whether 'slam' depends on the cab or the amp. I recently picked up a Wayne Jones 2X10 1000W Class D powered cab from a fellow TB'er and am very impressed. Rather than gush over this thing myself (being no expert), I copied come snippets from a BassMusician review (by Jake Wolf):

"I could say things like “It is the fastest cab I’ve ever heard”, or “sounds like a cab 3 times its size”, or “effortlessly quick and muscular”, but what does all that hyperbole that actually mean?... The 210 excels at that wonderfully elusive characteristic I like to call “slam”. For lack of a better definition, (to me) slam is: effortless low end delivery, that is both taut and massive, and a seemingly endless power reserve to dish out transient peaks. It’s one of those cabs that makes you want to play slap lines just for the fun of it... Can you find a rig that is quicker sounding with more slam and definition? I’m not aware of one!"

 

[LiptonJigglers]

To the OP, just get the Aguilar DB751 and be done with it.
You'll end up spending the same amount of cash, if not more, on amps, simulators, pedals, preamps, strings, pickups and whatever else others will be happy to sell you, chasing what simply isn't there and you still wont be satisfied...
You'll be told all sorts of truths, half-truths, lies, deceptions and gobbledygook from all kinds of experts, techsperts and quicksquirts that'll make your head spin faster than Reagan McNeil from the Exorcist.
Just buy it and be happy.
If you want a Ferrari, buy a Ferrari. Don't buy a VW with Ferrari badges on it.

 

[Marty Forrer]

I dunno. I've had quite a few tube heads, the last one was a Mesa 400. Would I have another? No. I'm currently in four gigging bands, and I'll take lightweight gear any day. The Ashdown combo in my avatar pic has never been over 10 oçlock on the master volume, otherwise I would be shown the door. Tonewise, I get everything I need from it. One head I do think captures the essence of tubes is the GB Streamliner, designed by our own Mr Agedhorse. It has four preamp tubes and gets that cushiony feel very nicely. I'm currently watching out for one, I should never have sold the one I had.

 

[DJ Bebop]

In my completely unprofessional, uneducated opinion I feel like "slam" isn't just those deep lo mids hitting you, it is those frequencies hitting you fast. Another useless, but someone accurate term I use is authoritative, in that it hits quick and solid.
To that end, a cab that can't produce the EQ properly, or can't respond quickly enough to those frequencies, aren't fast enough to take advantage of them. So your 4x10 + 1x18 (is that a 90s Ampeg BTW?) Balances out the depth of the 18 with the speed of the 10s. The excursion of the 15s might be a hair too slow, and the req curve a little too muffled to optimize the "slam" of a DB751. Maybe. I dunno. I'm guessing.
Alex Webster plays a DB751 in a death metal band, or Nick Schendzielos who uses a DB751 on everything from trash to tech death metal, use a 8x10 cab with theirs. They have roadies and I don't, so I use a light weight 2x12 that is as loud as a 8x10.

The 4x10, 1x18 was a set of Mesa Powerhouse cabinets, the 15 is a Mesa Subway 1x15.

 

[SC Bassboy]

Transformers don’t store power, and class D amps have transformers anyway.

Ok. Well, I don't specifically know what I'm talking about but at the end of the day Class D amplifiers still don't hit as hard or I would quit dragging around my heavy ass GK 2001RB.

 

[gstaats]

Ok. Well, I don't specifically know what I'm talking about but at the end of the day Class D amplifiers still don't hit as hard or I would quit dragging around my heavy ass GK 2001RB.

There have been blind tests with a lead sleds and modern amps of other topologies... People couldn't tell the difference. Some tend to listen with their eyes and not their ears. You've probably interacted with some of them here already. I had a 2001rb. Loved it - loved how it would kill the high end biamp feed on the dirty channel. Loved running it through my gk neo 412. Hated moving it. Hated moving the cab. I'm running a mesa tt-800 now and get lots of compliments on the feed to foh through the post DI and it sounds great through my cabs.

Not saying for anyone to change up what they are - play what you want. It's awesome to have options of 3-400watt tube amps, kilowatt+ lead sleds, ultralight 800watt marvels or even to go ampless. No single answer for everyone. But, at the end of the day, the research that others have done, it has been demonstrated that there are no discernable differences in A well designed modern amp and a legacy amp if voiced similarly.

 

[agedhorse]

Ok. Well, I don't specifically know what I'm talking about but at the end of the day Class D amplifiers still don't hit as hard or I would quit dragging around my heavy ass GK 2001RB.

It may also be that you prefer the "GK tone" specific to that particular amp (which is somewhat different from many of their others).

 

[fishdude101101]

Most lead sled solid state amps have very high (not low) dampening factor. The Walkabout was an exception because that was the designer’s intent.

That’s more a question for Aguilar, why didn’t they do this?

By comparison, I did do this taking the Genz Benz ML-200 to NeoPak 3.5 to Shuttle 3.0. All basically the same preamp with different power supplies and power amps. Same for the GBE-750/1200 to the ShuttleMax 6.0/12.0

Most lead sled solid state amps have very high (not low) dampening factor. The Walkabout was an exception because that was the designer’s intent.

That’s more a question for Aguilar, why didn’t they do this?

By comparison, I did do this taking the Genz Benz ML-200 to NeoPak 3.5 to Shuttle 3.0. All basically the same preamp with different power supplies and power amps. Same for the GBE-750/1200 to the ShuttleMax 6.0/12.0

Hey I'll admit I dont know what I'm talking about. Do big heavy tube amps have lower dampening?

Anyway I still feel like a lot of guys these days show up with 1 or 2 12s and say their 800 watt amp doesn't "slam". Just not enough speakers.

 

[g4string]

Wow...6 pages (so far) of people trashing the words used……

I’m amazed at some of the responses in this thread….well, maybe not considering the world we live in. There really is no reason to post a sarcastic, snarky, not-witty, not funny, bring-nothing-to-the-conversation response to this thread. Especially since most of the people who make off color comments prob have a full understanding of the intent on what’s trying be articulated. Yet, some people have a hard time trying to not act like ding dongs. People always have the option to keep scrolling….but I guess some people just love to hear themselves talk, or in this case they to love broadcast their response for the world to see. SMH

 

[g4string]

I couldn't agree more!! For a lot of us in that group we are working on finding a balance between the sounds we want to make and what is practical. I think that's probably is where the OP is at.

Guys obsess about the nuance between strings, pickups, high-mass bridges, nut material, etc... The thickness and material of a pick makes a difference for some. Amps / speakers are no different.

As far as the "audience can't tell" or "your sound is all in the FOH" - that's probably true. But remember that everyone is in this music / bass playing thing for different purposes.
For me, I'm not worried about the audience. I try to focus on MY thing. That means my little corner of the stage. I'm concerned about the sounds I'm making, and how that fits into the context of the band. My bass, amp, and cab are a big part of that for me. I've always found that when I'm making myself happy, I play good, and the audience responds. The right amp makes me happy and that makes me play good, and everything else falls in line.

The audience is not supposed to know about what goes into the sausage - just that it tastes good. But you can be damn sure that a really good sausage maker is concerned about every small detail - the quality of the meat, the exact blend of ingredients, the freshness and quality of the spice. If you are fine with hot-dogs, good for you, but you shouldn't give someone a hard time for giving a damn about making the best sausage they can.

Some people like to make "paintings" on an Ipad, and some people like to stretch their own canvas and mix their own oils. Everyone should do their thing. If your aural painting involves finding an amp that has "slam," then that's what you should chase.

+1. Well said. This is so true. When your stage sound is less than perfect, it 100% affects your playing. If I can get my stage to where it brings a smile to my face every time, I know have the ability to just have fun and focus more on my playing.

 

[bebass]

Nate Navarro's demos of the Genzler products have the most slam of any YouTube demo I've heard. How much of that is production I'm not sure.

“PRODUCTION” Not commenting on that specific video as I don’t usually listen to any of them, but THIS is one reason I can’t fathom as to why players listen to youtube video to determine their choice in amps. It will never tell the same truth as playing one personally with YOUR bass. I have had a plethora of players say, and I do too, that the sound determination is nothing like “what I listened to on YouTube”. Plug in a cab and that sound changes as to the cab’s characteristics. Then it is said “but I listened to a youtube video of the amp miced through a cab”. Gee, what mic and EQ, and is it the same cab and bass you use adjusted exactly like yours?

Bottom line is that these posts are significantly colored by “youtube listening” as well as any particular individual’s experience of what they themselves chose to use, and probably only a handful of people have ever compared the many multiple amps on the market, with multiple basses, in an A/B/C/D/E environment with the same as well as multiple cab configurations.

 

[g4string]

“PRODUCTION” Not commenting on that specific video as I don’t usually listen to any of them, but THIS is one reason I can’t fathom as to why players listen to youtube video to determine their choice in amps. It will never tell the same truth as playing one personally with YOUR bass. I have had a plethora of players say, and I do too, that the sound determination is nothing like “what I listened to on YouTube”. Plug in a cab and that sound changes as to the cab’s characteristics. Then it is said “but I listened to a youtube video of the amp miced through a cab”. Gee, what mic and EQ, and is it the same cab and bass you use adjusted exactly like yours?

Bottom line is that these posts are significantly colored by “youtube listening” as well as any particular individual’s experience of what they themselves chose to use, and probably only a handful of people have ever compared the many multiple amps on the market, with multiple basses, in an A/B/C/D/E environment with the same as well as multiple cab configurations.

exactly…..and on paper, you can get a Th500/700 to sound just like a DB751. But live, in the room, when you can “feel” the amp moving that air, they’re not the same.

 

[agedhorse]

Hey I'll admit I dont know what I'm talking about. Do big heavy tube amps have lower dampening?

Anyway I still feel like a lot of guys these days show up with 1 or 2 12s and say their 800 watt amp doesn't "slam". Just not enough speakers.

Tube amps generally have low damping factor. They often gave a different voicing too.

Yes, speakers can contribute to the perception of “slam and heft” (using the terms loosely since they have different meanings to different folks).

 

[DuluthDank]

“PRODUCTION” Not commenting on that specific video as I don’t usually listen to any of them, but THIS is one reason I can’t fathom as to why players listen to youtube video to determine their choice in amps. It will never tell the same truth as playing one personally with YOUR bass. I have had a plethora of players say, and I do too, that the sound determination is nothing like “what I listened to on YouTube”. Plug in a cab and that sound changes as to the cab’s characteristics. Then it is said “but I listened to a youtube video of the amp miced through a cab”. Gee, what mic and EQ, and is it the same cab and bass you use adjusted exactly like yours?

Bottom line is that these posts are significantly colored by “youtube listening” as well as any particular individual’s experience of what they themselves chose to use, and probably only a handful of people have ever compared the many multiple amps on the market, with multiple basses, in an A/B/C/D/E environment with the same as well as multiple cab configurations.

Yeah, I tend to find that the process for me in deciding if I like gear is:

1: youtube demos and reviews on talkbass
2: try it in the store
3: try it at home on my gear
4: try it at at band practice

I really don't know until step 4 whether the gear is any good for me, which is why i really should stick to only buying gear with a nice and easy return process (guitar center, basically). I am regularly completely wrong with steps 1 through 3...

 

[DJ Bebop]

“PRODUCTION” Not commenting on that specific video as I don’t usually listen to any of them, but THIS is one reason I can’t fathom as to why players listen to youtube video to determine their choice in amps. It will never tell the same truth as playing one personally with YOUR bass. I have had a plethora of players say, and I do too, that the sound determination is nothing like “what I listened to on YouTube”. Plug in a cab and that sound changes as to the cab’s characteristics. Then it is said “but I listened to a youtube video of the amp miced through a cab”. Gee, what mic and EQ, and is it the same cab and bass you use adjusted exactly like yours?

Bottom line is that these posts are significantly colored by “youtube listening” as well as any particular individual’s experience of what they themselves chose to use, and probably only a handful of people have ever compared the many multiple amps on the market, with multiple basses, in an A/B/C/D/E environment with the same as well as multiple cab configurations.

I've found out recording myself. Some of the nuances I hear in the room can be either lost or overhyped by the mic. So adjustments need to be made. Just recording over a smart phone or camera just doesn't always get it.

Sometimes more care is taken with mics and DIs in a YouTube video, but what am I hearing then. Is it more DI or mic? Is that how it will sound in a room? In my room? Questions still remain.

In my case coming into my Mesa stuff. As nice as some videos were, I couldn't make a decision from them. They just sounded like well, amps. It was the written description and manual and the Sweetwater return policy if the amp didn't live up to the description that let me have the confidence to try it.

Thankfully it worked and functioned as described, thanks Andy.

 

[BlueTalon]

“PRODUCTION” Not commenting on that specific video as I don’t usually listen to any of them, but THIS is one reason I can’t fathom as to why players listen to youtube video to determine their choice in amps. It will never tell the same truth as playing one personally with YOUR bass. I have had a plethora of players say, and I do too, that the sound determination is nothing like “what I listened to on YouTube”. Plug in a cab and that sound changes as to the cab’s characteristics. Then it is said “but I listened to a youtube video of the amp miced through a cab”. Gee, what mic and EQ, and is it the same cab and bass you use adjusted exactly like yours?

Bottom line is that these posts are significantly colored by “youtube listening” as well as any particular individual’s experience of what they themselves chose to use, and probably only a handful of people have ever compared the many multiple amps on the market, with multiple basses, in an A/B/C/D/E environment with the same as well as multiple cab configurations.

Very fair point about what you hear on YouTube not necessarily being the same as what you'd hear in the real world. But I believe it can be useful when people are demonstrating different basses or different amps. Unless the person doing the demonstrating is deliberately using different settings in the presentation, I think it's safe to assume that whatever YouTube is doing to the sound of one amp, it's also doing to the sound of the other amps being demonstrated, making it a reasonably legitimate basis for comparison.

 

[gstaats]

I've found out recording myself. Some of the nuances I hear in the room can be either lost or overhyped by the mic. So adjustments need to be made. Just recording over a smart phone or camera just doesn't always get it.

Sometimes more care is taken with mics and DIs in a YouTube video, but what am I hearing then. Is it more DI or mic? Is that how it will sound in a room? In my room? Questions still remain.

Agreed. When listening to samples on youtube or vendor marketing videos, there are so many variables that go into them... All of the normal suspects that most consider (pickups, strings, preamp (if active), preamp/tone/blend settings, setup, playing style) impact the signal going into the amp. Amp settings usually are shown in videos. On the recording side, the room and placement in the room, the mic used, mic placement (think distance, on/off axis, placement on the driver, which driver is mic'd on a mult-driver cab), the mic preamp, and settings/post-processing all will impact the what is heard.

I'll fiddle with the mic used and mic placement with my B-15R when recording to get difference tonal variety just from the mic. Nothing else changed - same bass & amp settings. Unfortunately for us, depending on the choices made, tone can be tailored more to how an engineer wants it to sound without actually manipulating the tone via traditional means (eq etc).

Just like with everything in life, just have to listen to on with a grain of salt. Oh, sorry.. One more thing to go the rabbit hole on. Since neuralink isn't in production yet and we can't plug our brain into our computers and have the audio digitally uploaded to our brain (lol), how we consume media on our devices colors the tone too... The headphones/speakers/amps/DA converters and any processing done on our device colors the playback tone even more... lol...

 

[hasbeen]

When it comes to "grunt", Mesa and Genzler get a nod from me.

 

[Ben Clarke]

ask better questions, get better answers.

 

[5StringBlues]

Why is there air?